[Ads-l] antedating "When the elephants fight..."

[Jonathan Lighter]

Nice work, guys.

JL

On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 2:48 AM ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Interesting topic, JL. Excellent citation, James.
> The citation below presents two closely related statements with grass
> suffering or being crushed. The fighting animals are not elephants.
>
> Year: 1891
> Book Title: Behar Proverbs: Classified and Arranged
> Author: John Christian
> Publisher: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trübner & Company, London
> Quote Page 94
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=u67hAAAAMAAJ&q=%22suffers+in%22#v=snippet&
>
> [Begin excerpt]
> The grass suffers in the fight of the tiger and buffalo.
> . . .
> In the fight between the tiger and the buffalo the long grass and
> weeds perish (by being crushed). i.e., When two great men quarrel and
> fight, the "small fry" about them suffer.
> [End excerpt]
>
> The instance below referred to an endangered "pup dog".
>
> Date: May 21, 1901
> Newspaper: The Parsons Daily Sun
> Newspaper Location: Parsons, Kansas
> Article: (Untitled short item)
> Quote Page 2, Column 1
> Database: Newspapers.com
>
> [Begin excerpt]
> The efforts of the millionaire syndicates to buy the property out from
> under each other will not hurt you any if you don't dip in where you
> have no business. When elephants fight, the pup dog better keep out of
> the compound or he will get stepped on and flattened out about one
> millimeter thick.
> [End excerpt]
>
> Below is a close match that appeared slightly earlier than the 1919
> match located by JL.
>
> Date: 1918
> Title: Correspondence Relating To the Wishes of the Natives of the
> German Colonies as to Their Future Government
> Report number 11
> Report Title: German East Africa
> From: H. A. Byatt (Administrator)
> To: Secretary of State
> Date sent: March 22, 1918
> Date received: May 16, 1918
> Quote Page 25
> Publisher: His Majesty's Stationery Office, London
>
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=2AkyAQAAMAAJ&q=%22When+elephants%22#v=snippet&
>
> [Begin excerpt]
> He has suffered from the heavy exactions first of the Germans and then
> of ourselves, but as a rule is inclined to comfort himself with the
> philosophic reflection of the native proverb: "When elephants fight it
> is the grass that suffers."
> [End excerpt]
>
> Garson
>
> On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 1:23 AM James Eric Lawson <jel at nventure.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Thirty-three years earlier, and said to have been collected by Fallon
> > between 1870 and 1880, this is purportedly a Hindustani proverb:
> >
> > 1886  S. W. Fallon *A dictionary of Hindustani proverbs, including many
> > Marwari, Panjabi, Maggah, Bhojpuri and Tirhuti proverbs, sayings,
> > emblems, aphorisms, maxims and similes* (HathiTrust) 115   When
> > buffaloes fight the plantation is ruined.
> >
> >
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.c2846929&seq=131&q1=when+buffaloes+fight
> >
> > On 10/12/23 18:04, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> > > Oxford dictionary of proverbs has this from 1936, suggesting an origin
> in
> > > the Belgian Congo.
> > >
> > > 1919 Colorado Springs Gazette (Feb. 2) 2: A native [of German East
> Africa]
> > > recalled a tribal proverb: "When elephants fight, it is the grass that
> > > suffers."
> > >
> > > 1920 Vancouver Daily World (Sept. 9) 8: Four years of war, during
> which the
> > > natives ["of East Africa"] were badly used. "In their own language,"
> said
> > > the major, "'when the elephants fight, the grass is trampled.'"
> > >
> > > 1953 William Manchester, in The Sun (Baltimore, Md.) (Nov. 24)  1: The
> > > Burmese have a saying: When two buffaloes fight, the victim is the
> grass
> > > beneath them.
> > >
> > > 1959 St. Louis Post-Dispatch (Oct. 11)  3H: some of the Laotian sayings
> > > carry a good bit of folk wisdom....[E.g.,] "When the buffaloes fight,
> it is
> > > the grass that suffers."
> > >
> > > 1962 Rockford [Ill.] Register-Republic (March 28) 2B:   "When elephants
> > > fight, it's wise for ants to step aside," Cambodians told him.
> > >
> > > 1968 Akron Beacon Journal (March 3) A2: The Vietnamese have their own
> words
> > > for it: "When the buffaloes fight, the mosquitos die."
> > >
> > > IIRC, the version I heard in the '80s was "When the buffaloes fight,
> the
> > > ants are trampled."
> >
> > --
> > James Eric Lawson
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>


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