[An-lang] An-lang Digest, Vol 137, Issue 7

Wed Feb 18 02:27:33 UTC 2015

I assumed that kasi was being cited as a colloquial form of kasih but I'm
surprised that the relation between the two is not a given. The loss of
Malay *h and especially word-final *h in various Malay varieties is common
enough and would be even more expected in a high frequency word like
'give'. (In Kupang Malay it gets even further reduced to kas in certain
functions.) Since kasih and kasi function identically, it must be safe to
say that the latter is simply a reduced form of the former. The same
reduction can be found in many other high frequency words (e.g. masih >
masi) even in careful speech.

best,
Dan

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 8:01 PM, <an-lang-request at anu.edu.au> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: etymology of Malayic "kasi" ('give') (David Gil)
>    2. Re: etymology of Malayic "kasi" ('give') (Robert Blust)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 20:06:34 +0900
> From: David Gil <gil at eva.mpg.de>
> Subject: Re: [An-lang] etymology of Malayic "kasi" ('give')
> To: an-lang at anu.edu.au
> Message-ID: <54E320BA.4040903 at eva.mpg.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Bob,
>
> Final glottal stops within the Malayic family is a huge topic that I've
> been working on intermittently for many years.  But it's such a mess
> that I would not dare to use it as a diagnostic for etymologies.
>
> David
>
>
> On 17/02/2015 07:00, Robert Blust wrote:
> > Hi again David,
> >
> > So you must be assuming that /kasi/ was borrowed back into Malay from a
> > language that regularly lost *-q.  If so, what is the likely source?
> >
> > For the etymology of Malay /kasih/ see PMP *qasiq and its subentry
> *ka-qasiq
> > in the freely accessible ACD (www.trussel2.com/ACD).
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Bob Blust
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Gil" <gil at eva.mpg.de>
> > To: "Austronesian languages" <an-lang at anu.edu.au>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2015 8:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: [An-lang] etymology of Malayic "kasi" ('give')
> >
> >
> >> Dear all,
> >>
> >> Many thanks for all of your suggestions, either to me personally or to
> >> the list.  In fact, there was unanimity that the source of Malayic
> >> "kasi" ('give') is in a similar word for 'love' or 'compassion'.  At
> >> first I was not too convinced; it felt a little bit too much like a folk
> >> etymology.  However, some of the later comments, with data from a wider
> >> range of languages such as Onya Darat (Land Dayak, thanks to Uri Tadmor)
> >> and Tae' (Torajan, thanks to Daniel Kaufman), provided evidence that
> >> this is most probably the correct etymology.
> >>
> >> Again, thanks to you all for your comments,
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 07/02/2015 16:13, David Gil wrote:
> >>> Dear Austronesianists,
> >>>
> >>> I am trying to find an etymology for Malayic "kasi" ('give').  Can
> >>> anybody ...
> >>>
> >>> (1) point me to a previously proposed etymology for "kasi"?
> >>> (2) suggest possible cognate forms in other (non-Malayic) Austronesian
> >>> languages?
> >>> (3) offer any other relevant thoughts and suggestions?
> >>>
> >>> So far I have not been able to find anything.  My current thinking is
> >>> that "kasi" may be part of a complex of interrelated forms such as
> >>> Standard Malay "ke" ('to'), "akan" (future, oblique), and "=kan"
> >>> (causative, applicative), but this remains speculative.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> David
> >>>
> >> --
> >> David Gil
> >>
> >> Department of Linguistics
> >> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> >> Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
> >>
> >> Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
> >> Email: gil at eva.mpg.de
> >> Webpage:  http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> An-lang mailing list
> >> An-lang at anu.edu.au
> >> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/an-lang
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > An-lang mailing list
> > An-lang at anu.edu.au
> > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/an-lang
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> David Gil
>
> Department of Linguistics
> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
>
> Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
> Email: gil at eva.mpg.de
> Webpage:  http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 08:56:38 -1000
> From: "Robert Blust" <blust at hawaii.edu>
> Subject: Re: [An-lang] etymology of Malayic "kasi" ('give')
> To: "David Gil" <gil at eva.mpg.de>
> Cc: an-lang at anu.edu.au
> Message-ID: <02F2B978306344319602F6CBC3B719F2 at BlustPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>         reply-type=original
>
> David,
>
> I'm not talking about "final glottal stops".  I'm talking about
> *-q, which regularly became Malay /-h/.  You'll notice that it appears in
> /kasih/, where we would expect it (from *ka-qasiq --- see the ACD), but not
> in /kasi/, which is why I told you when you first sent your inquiry out
> that
> I don't know of a good etymology for the latter.
>
> Best,
>
> Bob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Gil" <gil at eva.mpg.de>
> To: <an-lang at anu.edu.au>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 1:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [An-lang] etymology of Malayic "kasi" ('give')
>
>
> > Bob,
> >
> > Final glottal stops within the Malayic family is a huge topic that I've
> > been working on intermittently for many years.  But it's such a mess
> > that I would not dare to use it as a diagnostic for etymologies.
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> > On 17/02/2015 07:00, Robert Blust wrote:
> >> Hi again David,
> >>
> >> So you must be assuming that /kasi/ was borrowed back into Malay from a
> >> language that regularly lost *-q.  If so, what is the likely source?
> >>
> >> For the etymology of Malay /kasih/ see PMP *qasiq and its subentry
> >> *ka-qasiq
> >> in the freely accessible ACD (www.trussel2.com/ACD).
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Bob Blust
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "David Gil" <gil at eva.mpg.de>
> >> To: "Austronesian languages" <an-lang at anu.edu.au>
> >> Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2015 8:24 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [An-lang] etymology of Malayic "kasi" ('give')
> >>
> >>
> >>> Dear all,
> >>>
> >>> Many thanks for all of your suggestions, either to me personally or to
> >>> the list.  In fact, there was unanimity that the source of Malayic
> >>> "kasi" ('give') is in a similar word for 'love' or 'compassion'.  At
> >>> first I was not too convinced; it felt a little bit too much like a
> folk
> >>> etymology.  However, some of the later comments, with data from a wider
> >>> range of languages such as Onya Darat (Land Dayak, thanks to Uri
> Tadmor)
> >>> and Tae' (Torajan, thanks to Daniel Kaufman), provided evidence that
> >>> this is most probably the correct etymology.
> >>>
> >>> Again, thanks to you all for your comments,
> >>>
> >>> David
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 07/02/2015 16:13, David Gil wrote:
> >>>> Dear Austronesianists,
> >>>>
> >>>> I am trying to find an etymology for Malayic "kasi" ('give').  Can
> >>>> anybody ...
> >>>>
> >>>> (1) point me to a previously proposed etymology for "kasi"?
> >>>> (2) suggest possible cognate forms in other (non-Malayic) Austronesian
> >>>> languages?
> >>>> (3) offer any other relevant thoughts and suggestions?
> >>>>
> >>>> So far I have not been able to find anything.  My current thinking is
> >>>> that "kasi" may be part of a complex of interrelated forms such as
> >>>> Standard Malay "ke" ('to'), "akan" (future, oblique), and "=kan"
> >>>> (causative, applicative), but this remains speculative.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>>
> >>>> David
> >>>>
> >>> --
> >>> David Gil
> >>>
> >>> Department of Linguistics
> >>> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> >>> Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
> >>>
> >>> Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
> >>> Email: gil at eva.mpg.de
> >>> Webpage:  http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> An-lang mailing list
> >>> An-lang at anu.edu.au
> >>> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/an-lang
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> An-lang mailing list
> >> An-lang at anu.edu.au
> >> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/an-lang
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > David Gil
> >
> > Department of Linguistics
> > Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> > Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
> >
> > Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
> > Email: gil at eva.mpg.de
> > Webpage:  http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > An-lang mailing list
> > An-lang at anu.edu.au
> > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/an-lang
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
> End of An-lang Digest, Vol 137, Issue 7
> ***************************************
>
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