The Number Eight..../'Circumscribed' numerals (fwd)

[Jim Holton]

The e-mail from Dell Hymes reminded me of the story about the numbers that
Father Jean-Marie LeJeune told.

"To understand the origin of the numbers, as expressed in the different
languages of these districts, open out both hands, palms facing outside, the
thumbs near each other.  The little finger of the left hand is one, next to it,
his helper, his second, two; the third finger, middle hand, three; the next
coming, the index, is a special number, four: they used to keep the dead bodies
until the fourth day.  Then comes the thumb, full hand five; the next is across
to the other hand, the thumb of the right hand, the first of the second hand,
six.  Seven seems to mean second of the right hand and in fact we have
sinamoxt, again two.  Eight is also a special number, an octave, stotekin.  The
fourth finger of the right hands shows but one, both hands full but one, kwist,
pretty nearly full hands.  Then comes full hands, ten.  Notice kwinnum, five,
taghum, across to the other hand, tahtlum, both hands full, has the same
termination
"

lhaXayEm, Jim




David Robertson wrote:

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> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:11:53 -0500
> From: Dell Hymes <dhh4d at virginia.edu>
> To: David Robertson <drobert at tincan.tincan.org>
> Subject: Re: The Number Eight..../'Circumscribed' numerals
>
> The form for 'seven' in Chinook proper, which I have taken to calling
> 'Shoalwater Chinook' to distinguish it from 'Chinook' in the sense of the
> Jargon, is sinamakSt  (see Boas, Chinook, 1911 (Handbook of American Indian
> Languages Part I, p. 637 (Washington, D. C. :Government Printing Office))
>         The second part is the word for 'two' throughout Chinookan (it's
> the same in Wasco and Wishram at the eastern end).  What about sin-(a)-?  I
> have long thought that it is a form for 'point' or 'end' or 'extremity'.
> One has to guess.  But there are forms of the same shape elsewhere in
> Chinookan and related languages which have such meanings.  (Sorry I don't
> remember them off hand--if I remember right, there's a Penutian coagnate in
> the sense of 'nose').
>         That would make sense.  sin- for 'five' in the sense of a whole
> hand of fingers, two to follow = seven.
>         This is an inference, but clearly sin- is something (since makSt is
> something, namely 'two').
>         As for 'eight', I don't think I ever did figure out what it was,
> except that it has the look of a verb word, if it is Chinookan in origin.
> kwitst 'nine' has the meaning 'less than', as I recall (i.e., less then
> 'ten').
>         Sorry to rely on my memory, being pressed at the moment.
>
>                         All best,
>                                 Dell
>
> >LaXayEm,
> >
> >But it's noteworthy that e.g. Chinook Jargon '7' is also a 'circumscribed'
> >numeral in origin -- as far as I can tell.  Perhaps Dell Hymes or another
> >person can say for sure.
> >
> >Supposedly most of the numerals in Lakota, Dakota etc. are
> >'circumscribed', meaning they have meaning rather than just indicating a
> >number.  The meanings refer to fingers being folded over; to a whole fist;
> >and so on.  I believe Salishan languages have several numerals like this
> >too, and that such words refer to a system of counting on the hands.
> >
> >Finally, there are languages which have lost very nearly all of their
> >native numerals to a powerful foreign language's influence.  I can't
> >think of examples just now, though!  And Michif has only one Cree numeral,
> >"one", but that's a whole 'nother case entirely, and the language also
> >has for example the French articles <un, une>.
> >
> >Lush san!
> >Dave
> >
> > *VISIT the archives of the CHINOOK jargon and the SALISHAN & neighboring*
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