Pls help with French meanings/origins on my Chinook Jargon page

[Mike Cleven]

Your reply is great, thanks, and helps with some things that haven't had
explanations before; I'll explain why some of the etymologies "work", at
least according to traditional Chinook/PacNW etymological theory.

JGuy wrote:
>
> Capo - coat. Capot. It's Canadian French, meaning winter
>      coat. In French, it's capote, related to Italian
>      capotto "overcoat".

An interesting distinction between CF and FF; As I've often speculated,
the main influence on the Jargon was from Canadian French forms, via the
voyageurs
>
> Latuk - a woolen cap. La toque, not "tuque".

Confusion comes from "tuque" being the common English spelling; I'll fix
thix.

>
> Lapellah - no idea, but I don't think it can
>      be from le foyer or le four.

There's a very common f -> p mutation for word-borrowings in all PacNW
languages; presumably the lexicographer (Shaw?) who came up with these
suggested etymologies was working on that premise; I know I got this
from _somewhere_.  I've never bought the y -> ll mutation myself; the f
-> p mutation would seem to produce lapway or lapooyay if that had been
the case (the r is silent in le foyer of course; the r normally mutates
to h, as occurs in other words as in la rame -> laham); "le four" as
source doesn't make any sense at all; the result should be lepoo as I've
noted.  There's been some discussion in the CHINOOK list lately on
lapellah; I'll go back and see what our pros were saying.  IIRC there
doesn't appear to be a native language source in the region, either.
This is why I speculated - rather daringly - on the use of a shovel (la
pelle) as a fireplace cooking tool.  I'd use a clean one, of course ;-)
One of the best ways to barbeque on an open fire is with the use of some
kind of metal surface or, for example, the steel grill from inside an
oven, which didn't exist then; barbequed salmon, yum!  I don't suppose
there's any archaic or obscure word that's anything like "la felare",
which would account for both the 'll' and the 'h' in Lapellah?  Anyway,
the "traditional etymology" here has been French; this may change if
another source language or word is ever figured out.

>
> Lagwin, lakween - l'égoïne. My dictionary gives "handsaw".
>      "Handsaw" yes, but not any handsaw. It is a handsaw with
>      a narrow blade tapering to a point.

Hmmm....trying to remember the English name for one of those; there is
one, but only carpenters use it.  Once she provides me a copy of it (Hi
Barbara!) I'll be posting a copy of Prof. Barbara Harris' paper on the
adventures and misadventures this word saw in the Northwest lumber
camps.....

>
> Lablide -- la bride, not "la bridle"

My mistake; typo in transcription; or else I just copied it straight out
of Shaw, one of the main historical lexicographers.
>
> Lapishemo -- I don't know, I tend to think it is rather
>       le ???ement, something like le harnachement, perhaps
>       le fichement, although I have never come across it
>       it's a possible word meaning "comment il est fichu"
>       -- how [the horse] is outfitted. I'd be very surprised
>       if chameau had anything to do with it.

chameau was my guess; I'd originally erred confusing it with chauffe/eur
to do with heat, i.e. some kind of blanket or covering, but I got shot
down for that one a long time ago.  Lapishemo is credited in the list
with coming from Algonkian (Ojibway I think) but there's no reason to
think that it wasn't borrowed from French there, either, given your
explanation, which hasn't come up before.
>
> Lapiege. -- le piège, not "la piege"

Again, other than the gender, I've got to figure out those darned  
HTML accents, circumflexes, etc.
>
> Lasanjel -- la sangle, not la cingle.

Thanks; la cingle is given in one of the sources.  This is another
curious mutation, as le sangle (or la cingle, if it existed) would more
likely mutate to lasank or even lasankl ('kl' in the PacNW is a common
native-language consonant, often also transcribed as 'tl').

> Lashandel -- only chandelle. Chandaille does not exist.

OK; think that came from one of the Boston (American) lexicons, so I
don't think it's my mistake.  Maybe dreaming in technicolour, though....

> Lashey, larch. Le seigle, not  la siegle. But I don't
>         think that's the etymology.

s -> sh easily enough in local mutations.  I'm unfamiliar with the
prononciation of "seigle" - is that 'gle' "mild" or is it a real "gl";
I'd have expected "lashaykl" in that case, but final consonants are
often dropped in many borrowings.  la siegle may have been my typo,
other than the gender.

>         Hey "barley"!
>
>         Seigle is rye, barley is orge. It's "l'orge"!

Which explains "larch", which didn't make any sense to me until you
posted l'orge.  It's unexplained in the sources as to the prononciation
of that 'ch', which might well be a deeper guttural than 'h'.
>
> Lakutchee -- clam. la coquille. Must be dialectal: in
>         some dialects k becomes palatalized before a front
>         vowel. Standard French would have given lakukee
>         (or lakookee)

Again, this may actually be of native origin, like most shellfish words
(klogh-klogh = oyster, ona = clams, toluks = mussel).

> Pish -- fish from la peche, why can't it be just from "fish"???

One of the sources (Shaw, I think) gave French as an etymology here, so
I'm just repeating it although I agree with you.  Perhaps the reason is
that the voyageurs were in the region (at least in the Interior) from
just as early as any English-speaker; the French were barely present on
the Coast until the foundation of Astoria, on the other hand; whereas
the British, Americans, Spanish and Russians (and Portuguese, although
there were at least two French ships in the very early period) were on
the Coast from about 20 years earlier.  You haven't seen the other
connected pages here (not uploaded until the new webspace is up tonight)
but there's an interesting error-cum-usage from the lexicons, where
"piah" (for fire) was misprinted as "pish" and this became accepted by
non-natives who bought published lexicons (sold for settlers and
prospectors), and fell into regular (if confusing) Jargon usage.


> Lamel -- from la mule, not from le mulet (mulet is the male,
>        mule the female. Mulet is also mullet, the fish).

Hard to conceive of a completely sterile being having gender, but they
do, don't they? ;-)  The "le mulet" was in one of the sources.  Why the
result wasn't "lamool" I don't know.

> Lamedsin -- la médecine (medicine, drug).
>        Le médecin would have given lametse I think.

Final nasals don't seem to have been a problem; it may be that lamedsin
was adopted so as to prevent confusion with lamess (la messe) from your
"lametse".  On the other hand, this would appear to be an early word and
most ecclestiastical words didn't come until the arrival of the Oblates
some 50 years after the voyageurs were first in the region.  As far as
the nasal goes, I've never been able to figure out the doctor -> doctin
mutation which figures in the Jargon; why not just "dokto" or "doktuh"?
>
> Delate -- probably from Norman French "drette", standard
>         French "droite" (f. of "droit", straight).

That makes a _lot_ more sense, and of cours as is well-known archaic
French Canadian was based in Norman dialects; isn't it true that
canadien keeps a lot of older forms long since "evolved" away in
France?  The Metis, as geographic outliers of the francophonie, are
candidates for preserving older forms, no?


> Laplash -- also possibly from "la place = room" as in "il y a de
>         la place"

Hmmmm.  "room" as in "space", you mean?


> Coulee -- from courir. Coulir does not exist.

Did I do that _again_?  Is there a "couler", perhaps?  I remember quite
a lively discussion on this in the list sometime back.  "Cooley"
certainly seems to come from "courir"; "coulee" I'm not so sure - it's
more of a Prairie word originally anyway; there was some discussion as
to how that final vowel came into being; I'll have to check my archives
and fix this.  Thanks.

> Tintin -- just an onomatopoeia: ding-ding

Agreed, but this is usually credited to French for some reason; I can't
see alarm clocks having had much relevance in voyageur campsites or even
in HBC posts (well, maybe in the HBC posts).  "Din" in English is
"noise", of course, and is equally onomatopoeic there as well.

> Burdash -- I can't find "berdache" in my 1900 7-volume
>         Larousse, so...?

The French origin is quoted in the sources; someone else once supplied
the "berdache" spelling/usage here, and pointed at the 17th C or
before.  I'm open to suggestions.  This isn't a native word, so far as
is known.

> Polallie -- no idea

Another word about which there's been some discussion and dispute in the
list lately.  "Olallie" is berry from one of the native languages (not
sure which) and it's perceived (as in my page) that sapolallie for
'soapberry', for example, may come from sabon + olallie; perhaps there's
a p- + olallie formation here to produce a word for any fine-grained
substance, e.g. sand, flour, gunpowder (hmmm piah-olallie?....flour is
used with fire, as well of course).

Thanks very, very much for your help; gives me something to work on for
the morning (after another cup of coffee and one of those darned
tabac-sticks - most likely "lasikalet" if it had ever been in the
Jargon).....


--
Mike Cleven
http://www.cayoosh.net (Bridge River Lillooet history)
http://www.hiyu.net (Chinook Jargon phrasebook/history)