[gothic-l] Aryans, Scythians, misc

[Brian Gendler]

-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
0% Introductory APR!
Instant Approval!
Aria Visa - get yours today.
http://click.egroups.com/1/7102/8/_/3398/_/969050774/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->

Manuel Gutierrez Algaba wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2000, Anthony Appleyard wrote:
> >   I thought the Scyths were an Iranian people. It is said that the Ossetic
> > people in the Balkans are descended from them. They are named "Ashkuz" in
>
> If they were Iranian, then in 500BC, why Herodotus say Scyths
> live in Crimea, and at the same time Persians rule  Iran ?
> Scyths in Iran and Scyths in Crimea ? By goths I mean the Scyths
> that in 500BC. were in Crimea and South Ukraine. The "Iranian Scyths"
> or other Indoeuropean people were already settled in India, Iran,
> Pakistan,...

But "Goth" and "Scythian" are NOT the same thing. Classical sources
sometimes confuse them, but mostly because of the high population of
Scythians who swelled the ranks of the Goths and no doubt also because
of their location.

> Can we agree that Goths were in that zone in that time?

No, we can't. There were surely Scythians there, but let me back up
and quote a message that Bertil made a few days back:

"Nordgren suggests two waves of migration of Goths from Scandinavia:
a first wave from Gotland in 350 BC and a second around the Birth
of Christ."

If this is true, the Goths were still in Scandinavia in 500 bce.,
and I think that most people argue that a date like that is early,
not late. More people seem to think the Goths moved out of Scandinavia
around the birth of Christ. Remember where Tacitus puts them, just
before 100 ce., not yet moved south into the Ukraine area. This all
seems to point to an answer, No, we cannot agree on Goths around the
Ukraine in 500 bce.

> And yes, the language of Bishop Wulfila is not Swedish, not Gata,
> it's what was left after a couple of centuries of Roman contacts
> and civilization. It was the language spoken in Central Spain,
> Southern France in the centuries 4-7 by these people.

But Ulfilas made his translation before the Visigoths got to Spain.
I am not sure of when he made the translation (does anybody???) but
he was consecrated to bishop in 341, so I think you are a little late.
These minor points aside, I agree with a good amount of what you are
saying. I would probably put a bit more weight on Scythian influence,
and on Greek gloss. Scythian should have been a big influence because
of the high amount of Scythians that supposedly "went Goth." Remember
that Ulfilas himself was not of Germanic/Gothic descent, but the
descendant of a captive. Greek would have played a large role in the
Gothic that we see in the Ulfilas translations because he was working
from a Greek text and used obvious Greek loans like "Angel."
   'till next time, Gendler.

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.
Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html