[gothic-l] Re: The Eruli and the Stentoften Rune Inscription

Wed Dec 19 14:49:02 UTC 2001

--- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> > >--- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> > >> Bertil,
> > >> I can buy that.
> > >> What matters most to me is that we place various occasions in 
the
> > >correct
> > >> century.
> > >> I want to compare apples with apples not with anything else.
> > >>
> > >> I got furious when the tourist guides in Visby talked about the
> > >fantastic
> > >> buildings, build by the German Hanse, dated to the 13th 
century.
> > >> The German Hanse was only founded in 1358. Almost all anchient
> > >buildings in
> > >> Visby are built before the German Hanse. As far as I understand
> > >most of the
> > >> tourist  guides know better now.
> > >> Tore
> > >
> > >
> > >Tore,
> > >
> > >I am afraid this is completely wrong. The origin of the Hanse 
goes
> > >back to the 11th century when certain privileges were awarded to
> > >merchants of Cologne, Tiel and Bremen. In 1161, 
the 'Genossenschaft
> > >der Gotlandfahrer' (the union of the seafarers to Gotland)is 
> founded.
> > >In about 1180 the Hanse-contor of Novgorod is opened. In 1266/67 
> the
> > >Hanse is mentioned in a document. I don't know were you got your 
> date
> > >1358 from, but it is completely wrong as founding date of the 
> Hanse.
> > >By 1350 the Hanse had already reached its height of power. About 
> half
> > >of the population of Visby were Germans at that time.
> > >
> > >
> > >Have a look at this chronicle of the hanse:
> > >
> > >http://hanza.gdansk.gda.pl/kronika_n.html
> > >
> > >
> > >Sorry this is certainly off-list, but required a correction.
> > >
> > >cheers,
> > >Dirk
> > 
> > Sorry Dirk,
> > 
> > Now you are out on deep water.
> > The Hanseatic league was formed in 1358 and had its zenit in 
1370. 
> The 15th
> > century is  the time for the Deutsche Hanse.
> > 
> > See:
> > http://gotland.luma.com/Hanse.html
> > 
> > 
> > You are referring to the old German phantasies where they 
projected 
> back
> > the greatness of Lübeck in the 15th century. A comparison is to 
> talk about
> > the European Union in the 19th and first half of the 20th century.
> > 
> > Three years ago I participated in  a seminar in Lübeck about the 
> Deutsche
> > Hanse where also the authors of "Die Hanse Lebenswirklichkeit und 
> Mythos",
> > Volker Henn and Rainer Postel participated.
> > This matter was discussed and there is no question. There is no 
> Hanseatic
> > league before 1358.
> > It was problem in Brügge that forced Lübeck to seek help from 
other 
> trading
> > cities mainly Visby.
> > This resulted in the formation of the Hanseatic League in what we 
> later
> > call "die zweite Hansetag" in 1358.
> > 
> > The peace treaty of Artlenburg between Heinrich der Löwe 
> representing
> > Sachsen and Liknatte representing the repuplic of Gotland was in 
> 1161.
> > From that time traders from Sachsen were allowed to sail under 
> Gotlandic
> > flag and have an office in Visby.
> > The Gotlanders at the same time got confirmed their old 
privileges 
> in
> > Sachsen. Gotland and Visby were the leading trade nation in the 
> Baltic.
> > 
> > If you want more information we can move to Germanic
> > 
> > As far as I understand "Hanse" is an old Gothic word.
> > 
> > Tore
> 
> Tore,
> 
> there is no way that this is correct. Every mainstream history book 
> gives **1266** as the documented 'founding' date of the Hanse, when 
> it is first mentioned in a document. It existed however much 
earlier. 
> Hamburg for example joint in 1230. A Hanse contor at 
> Naugarden/Nowgorod was opened in the 1180s. From 1356, we have a 
> document that lists Hanseatic towns, but this is not the founding 
> date. In your interpretation you want to make it sound as if Visby 
> was the founder and most important city of the Hanse, which is not 
> correct. Also, Hanse is not a specific Gothic word, but a Germanic 
> word meaning 'union' or 'group'. 
> 
> This is mainly off-topic and I suggest we move to private e-mail 
> exchange, because it would also be mis-placed at the Germanic list.
> 
> Dirk

sorry I forgot to add the link of the University of Erlangen listing 
all Hanseatic congresses from 1256 onwards according to the 
Hanserezesse, making a founding date of 1356 simply impossible.

http://www.erlangerhistorikerseite.de/quellen/hansetag_frame.html

Note also that the Hanse-Rechnungsbuecher at Luebeck show that 
merchants from Luebeck spent large amounts of money building houses 
in Visby in the 13th and 14th century. Maybe this guide was not as 
badly informed as you thought.

To have some on-topic material, on the web-site of the New Hanse in 
Luebeck it is said that the word 'Hansa' is old high German and 
means 'group' or 'union'. Maybe it was also a Gothic word, but none 
of the sources that I consulted mention this.

cheers
Dirk

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Need new boots for winter? Looking for a perfect gift for your shoe loving friends?
Zappos.com is the perfect fit for all your shoe needs!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/ltdUpD/QrSDAA/ySSFAA/wWMplB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 