logic error: Gapt [gothic-l]

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., keth at o... wrote:

Hi Keth,

> 
> I am not familiar with your example of "Raus" and "Rapt",
> but if those two names refer to a pair of Vandal gods, and you look
> at the letter structure, it evidently forms a mirror image of the 
name-pair
> under discussion, "Gaut" (or Gauss) versus "Gapt".



For some info about Raus and Rapt (I hope I remember this correctly) 
see Wolfram's 'Rom und die Germanen'. I can give you more info 
tomorrow.


> 
> 
> What I had in mind, is the legend of the mythical "brothers"
> who become the progenitors of neighboring tribes. Often such
> brothers have similar sounding names that frequently commence
> on the same letter.
> 
> You mention classical mediterranean ideas, and indeed, one can here
> easily quote the example of the Bible, where the 3 sons of
> Noah become the progenitors of all subsequent humanity
> (in this case the post-diluvian humanity); they are Sem, Cham and
> Japhet. Often two brothers have very similar names (Sem and Cham),
> whereas the third one has a slightly different name (Japhet = 
Jafet).
> 
> In Tacitus it is mentioned that Mannus was the father of Ing, Ist
> and Ermin. Here evidently Mannus is the analogue of Noah, and the
> 2 brothers with similar names are Ing and Ist, while the third
> brother whose name is slightly different, is Ermin.
> 
> Also in Roman legend Romulus and Remus.



These were the two who I had in mind, but I think that there are many 
more examples in Greek and Roman mythology.



> 
> Hengist and Horsa of the Saxons is another example in the same vein.
> 


I think most of the Germanic tribal legends have this pair of imagined 
gods/heroes somewhere in the beginning. Note also that wooden idols in 
the sacrifical lakes and bogs have often been found in pairs (e.g. at 
Oberdoorla)!


> I am sure more examples can be found. Your example Raus/Rapt
> is the best one yet, and needs to be investigated.



I try to give you more info about Raus/Rapt tomorrow. I seem to 
vaguely remember that these names are thougth to mean something like 
wooden beam and stave (or similar, which would link them to the wooden 
idols that I mentioned earlier) There was also a  Gepidic personal 
name Reptila, which is thought to derive from Rapt.



> 
> Finally, I'd also like to point out that the Icelandic legend,
> that we have been using as basis for much of the discussion, and 
that
> Jacob Grimm also used to establish his axiom Gapt=Gaut,
> does not operate with only one progenitor either, but does in fact
> also have several, as it is attested by Snorri in his important
> source book "Gylfaginning".
> 
> In Snorri, then, you will see that he too follows the pattern
> that is familiar from mediterranean legend, to have several
> progenitors whose names all begin on the same  letter.
> i.e. in Snorri: "Gaut", "Gylfi", "Gefjon".
> 
> In this connection it is also highly interesting to look at the
> etymologic significance of these names:
> 
> 
> Gaut = (perhaps) connected to the verb "gjóta" = to pour;
>        connection with river name?
> 
> Gylfi = connection with 'gylfr' = river name?
>         may also be related to "gjalfr" = noise, ocean,
>         high waves (Finnur Jónsson).
> 
> Gefjon = > finn. kapiot = bridal gift.
>          Westgermanic Latin Gabiae = 'the giving ones'
>          or 'the very rich'. Jan de Vries thinks the best
>          possibility is to relate the name to "gefa".
> 
> 
> But isn't this name "Gefjon" then actually quite similar
> to "Gapt" interpreted in its relationship to 'gift' ?



That is beyond me I' afraid!

Cheers
Dirk

> 


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