[gothic-l] Hachmann

Tue Jul 10 23:34:11 UTC 2001

>
> Hi Ingemar,
>
> I am afraid we can go on like this indefinitely, but Hachmann, as well
> as most modern archaeologists state that the Masovian group/Wilbark
> culture (i.e. the Goths)  is an autochtonous culture (see for example
> Tadeusz Makiewicz, 'The Goths in Greater Poland'). Hachmann states
> that it is autochtonous in its southernly center but non-autochtonous
> in its northernly expanse, where it streched into the so-called
> 'Baltische Gruppe'. I can provide the exact citation if you want.
>
> To assume Scandinavian influence in the Przeworsk and Oxthoefte
> cultures, as you seem to do, is really streching it beyond
> plausibility, and no archaeologist and pre-historian is arguing this
> seriously. In fact, the Przeworsk culture (Oder/Warthe culture) is
> strongly influenced and shaped by Celtic cultures. For a recent
> treatment see for example: Marek Oledzki, "Zu den Trägern der
> Przeworsk-Kultur aufgrund schriftlicher und archäologischer Quellen"
> in: Ethnographisch-Archäologische Zeitschrift der Humbold Universitaet
> Berlin , 1999.
>
> cheers,
> Dirk
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
>    Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 07:30:38 -0000
>    From: dirk at smra.co.uk
> Subject: Re: Hachmann: to Ingemar and Keth
>
> ->
> > All he says is that their-the Masovians- jewellery is influenced
> from
> > La Tène and not from Scandinavia. Accordingly he has not proven the
> > Goths having neither a continental nor a Scandinavian origin because
> > he never states the first origin.
> >
>
> Hi Ingemar,
>
> we must have read a different book! Hachmann clearly states that the
> Goths were the bearers of the Wilbark/Willenberg culture/i.e. the
> Masovian group and he shows, as have many archaeologists after him,
> that this culture is not derived or significantly influenced by
> Scandinavian cultures, but is indigious to the area and developed from
> earlier cultures, i.e. the Oxthoefte culture, which in turn is
> strongly influenced and most closely related to the Przeworsk culture.
>
> cheers,
>
> Dirk

To clarify my  standpoint I will translate  a summary of what I wrote.
I know you dislike the theory Germanic comes from the nort and states it
was only in middle and southern  Europe it developed, connected to the
Celts. In this thing we
partly disagree. Besides you must remember my definition of several
peoples as
Gothic and the Wielbark culture as a mix of peoples archaeologically
seen but as a united cultic league religiously. The Gothic culture at
the
Vistula accordingly is a multiochtonous formation, as says also Hachmann
- through his arguments in any way which makes it possible to interpret
him so.

He states that at least during  the 2 c. CE   Goutai lived in
Scandinavia. He also concludes that  *Goutones, Gutones, Gotones or
Gudones) during  the 1. och 2. cc.CE  lived at Vistula East of the river
and not by the sea. He further claims a great probability that the
continental Goths are identical with the Masovian group.Concerning
Oxenstiernas   result in
Västergötland and Östergötland Hachmann connects them to *Gautigothae
and *Vagothae and   places Gotland in a comparable position with these
regions.(Hachmann 1970, p.432)He also claims the Gauts are Goths. In
these three
Scandinavian areas he sees an increase in the number of settlements and
of the cultivated land. In Masovia and Masuria  he sees an overlayering
of and increase of the number of settlements. The cultural contacts  he
means are more intensive with the Przeworsk-culture in South and
South-West than with Scandinavia. Still he also sees cultural and
ceramical similarites with Scandinavia but also differences. He claims
the culture of Väster- and Östergötland  is related with surrounding
landscapes while Gotland differs and shows closer contacts with the
continent from  the beginning of CE but mostly with East-Mecklenburg and
Pommerania and the Vistula mouth.He sees a close connection between
Scandinavian Goths and Continental Goths. He can not decide whether the
Scandinavian Goths biologically seen originated on the continent or
vice versa.About the possible time for an emigration he states as below:

Die Goutonez des Strabo geben jedenfalls einen Terminus ante quem für
die Wanderungsvorgänge falls Goten aus dem Norden gekommen sein
sollten.Die Goutai des Ptolemaios liefern einen entsprechenden Terminus,
falls Goten vom Kontinent kommend nach dem Norden verschlagen worden
sein
sollten. Beides - Wanderung von Gotenteilen nach dem Süden, Auswanderung
von Teilen des Gotenstammes nach dem Norden - könnten schon wesentlich
früher als die feststellbaren Termini ante quos vor sich gegangen sein.
. .Unter der Voraussetzung, daß die Masowische Gruppe mit den Goten
identisch ist, müßten die festländischen Goten schon um 100 v. Chr.
Geb.oder kurz vorher als an der Weichsel bezeugt gelten. Eine
Abwanderung
nach Norden könnte dann schon im Verlaufe des letzten vorchristlichen
Jahrhunderts erfolgt sein. Einwanderung von Goten aus dem Norden - sie
hätte zur Entstehung der Masowischen Gruppe geführt - müßte um oder kurz
vor 100 v. Chr. Geb. geschehen sein. (Hachmann 1970, p.433 f.)

About the probable origin of the Masovian group he says that an early
part of it is part of the Przeworsk culture. Ceramics, graves and
grave-goods differs from the Gesichtsurnen culture, the Pommeranian
culture, Stonecist-grave culture or Glockengräber-culture. New Polnish
resarch tries to prove a continuos developement during the Pre Roman
Iron Age of the Przeworsk-culture but he states that exact proofs are
hard to find. He supposes the new emigrants might have used older
habitations. He sees a continuity in all Vistula region from Stone Age
culture via Oxhöfde and Przeworsk. This is not, he remarks, the same as
a continuos population and it is extremely diffcult to differ between
the cultures at excavations.(Hachmann 1970,p.434 ff.)
His strongest proof for continuity between these cultures is a digging
at the cemetary by Wola Szydlowiecka-Kolonia,Kr. Lowicz , grave 2 - a
firepit grave from Przeworsk showing a ceramic plate ordinary in
Glockengräber- culture. He sees also a connection in the burial customs
in
the graves 7-10 showing a diversified content. He compares it with the
connections to Oxhöfde  about CE. The burial rite was changed but the
cemetarys were still in use.In the lower Vistula region however the
cemetarys are reduced in number and the land is abandoned to be
resettled during  Roman Iron Age. Also in the South, he means, the
transformation must result in a decrease of inhabited and cultivated
ground. In the Masovian area there are a lot of graves from this
culture.
The most informative he says are the finds in Kacice - a grave-field
from older Hallstatt-time and Young Latène-time where Glockengräber
culture
and Przeworsk culture meet. At Wilanow in Warszawa there are no
Glockengräber
graves but on the closely situated Henryków there are  together with
Masovian from Younger Iron Age with ceramics close to Przeworsk et c. He
concludes that it is insecure wether the Vistula valley around Wloclawek
belongs to the Masovian group or not.(Hachmann 1970, s.438 ff.)

 In North-Masovia  L och J Okulicz tried to find a continuation of
Przeworsk but Hachmann regards these artefacts as point towards the
West-Masurian  culture and the Baltic and sees no connection with
Przeworsk.(Hachmann 1970, s.444) Accordingly it follows that the
Masovian culture NOT is autochtonous and without doubt, as he says,
slowly has spread from the South and Northward. Beginning in younger Pre
Roman Iron Age the Southern branches have pressed away the West Masurian
culture, and during older Roman Iron Age the area is more closely
inhabited. In North and North-East still more land is included in the
habitational area, which have  an obscure, undecided habitational
history.
He suggests that an East Masurian Baltic group has been  driven away.
The origin to the Masovian culture he thinks is in the Stone-Cist and
Glockengräber culture in the Middle Vistula region. He is however not
convinced because finds of fibulae and other artefacts  point towards
influences from Celtic Latène culture, but there are also objects
lacking connections with this.Also the ceramics differs from La Tène. He
sees the burial and grave-goods tradition as "local tradition".
(Hachmann 1970, p.447)

The above shows that his arguments are not wholly convincing. E.g. he
rejects Oxenstiernas Pommeranian jewellery as being continental and not
Scandinavian from that period  but he likevise talks about "local
tradition" when  the same thing occurs in the Masovian group.Ockulicz,
Kmiezinsky and other have shown typical Scandinavian graves in the lower
and middle Vistula region  and Oxenstierna, Schindler et al. have
indicated Scandinavian-style Ceramic grave goods in the Vistula region,
and the weaponless burials with similar grave goods matches just West
Sweden and lower Vistula. Why Hachmann and Bierbrauer rejects
Scandinavian traces  in these regions is incomprehensible. There are
clear Scandinavic cultural traits mixed up with other in these regions
and they are part of the formation of the later Masovian group. He also
states the Goths were known before 300 BC, even if Andreas does not
agree with the correctness of this. His arguments that an possible
immigration should have taken place about 100 BC is just an assumption.
According to his own saying it could have taken place already 300 BC.
This could open for a long infiltration from Scandinavian culture in the
Wielbark culture resulting in the Masovian group. Remember that many
classic autors place the Goths in the lower Vistula region and not in
the Masovian region.It all points tovards a gradually expanding cultic
league with different cultures and peoples joining up, also
Scandinavians as probable bearer of the cultic tradition if not
overwhelmingly numerous. This impression of a cultic league  including
the whole Wielbark culture is indeed supported by Peter Heather. The
Goths did definitely not live only in the Masovian region, as Hachmann
states.If the Goths not was a single people, which evidently Hachmann
means  they were, there is also no meaning  looking for a massive
immigration. Many small creeks make a big river in time - remember. Also
remember that there are a lot lot of Celtic influence in the Nordic
Bronze Age culture and hence a Celtic influens must not nessecarily be
La Tène.

I sure as hell have forgotten many important things in this, being
tired  et c. after a late barbecue-party, but I hope it will be
understandable.

Kindly
Ingemar

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