[gothic-l] Re: Possible Gothic Origin - Cultic, Linguistic and Historical References

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "Beril Haggman" <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
>
> Esteemed listmembers,
>
> A great majority of researchers agree that there is a
> high probability of the Gothic people originating in
> southern Scandinavia.


Bertil,

this is not 'science by popular vote'. Anyway, what were needed is not
'a' great majortiy', but a qualified majority that has phased out the
errors of nationalistic scholars like Kossinna and the like.





Of course there is no absolute
> proof. Nobody on this list has claimed that Jordanes
> is presenting true and genuine memories. But Jordanes,
> Cassiodorus and Ablabius traced the origin
> of the Gothic people to the island of Scandza.


Your are contradicting yourself in two sentences. The important thing
is that neither of these authors 'traced' the origin to Scandza. The
Scandza topos is most likely a Roman idea, just like the Troy
topos that was around when the Goths arrived.



> These memories provide the view of the Goths
> themselves and why not accept the Goths own idea
> of their home.


Simply because the Goths had no clear memory whether or not they came
from Scandza, from Britannia, from Troy or were a biblical people.
Again, that would be extremely bad science if we were to decide these
questions on the basis of ancient perceptions and mistakes.



> Archeological evidence is inconclusive. Gotho-Gepidic
> culture is however attested in Pomerania and the lower
> Vistula (the s.c. Wielbark culture).
>

Full agreement there, adding that the Wielbark culture is indigenous
to the area.

(snip)


> It is not likely that there was a mass migration and at least
> a limited migration of aristocratic clans is highly likely. They
> could have organized the local poulation and given it their
> name. This would be in the similar vein as the Viking
> migration to Russia and Normandy.


This view is nowadays very much in question, because large-scale
studies of Fuerstengraeber have revealed that social stratification,
the development of elites and kings went from south to north. Thus,
the elite-domination model applicable to the Vikings is unlikely to be
 applicable to the centuries and decades BC.




On the other hand
> the lack of incineration funerals in Oester- and Vaestergoetland
> point to the fact that all social strata in Goetaland/Gautland
> were affected. The dominance of the Wielbark culture in
> the Vistula area could point to a similar pattern as during the
Viking
> era as Scandinavians were quickly assimilated into the
> numerous surrounding population.
>
> What was the reason for the Gothic migration to the south? It
> is not probable that they would have migrated north. To the
> west from Goetaland lay the vast expanse of the North Sea and
> in the East were hostile peoples. One possible explanation
> for choosing the southerly route was the amber trade and the
> Amber Way, and old trade route linking Scandinavia with the eastern
> Mediterranean as early as 1800 BC. The southern Baltic was also a
> traditional area of Scandinavian contacts.
>
> On this list there has been detailed presentation of the
> linguistic relation between the Goths, the Gauts, the Gutar
> and for instance Procopius' Gautoi, which are attested
> in southern Scandinavia. Jordanes is of course not the
> only source to link the Goths to southern Scandinavia.
> A huge majority of scholars attest the Scandinavian migration
> of the Goths from Scandinavia and that it is highly probable.


Again science by popular vote? Jordanes linked the Goths to Scandza,
to Troy and to the Bible, but only the Scandza topos survived mainly
in Scandinavia, where it served in the nation-building processes of
later centuries and even developed into Swedish Gothicism. No wonder
that 'a  huge' number of people cling on to it.



> No viable alternative has been forthcoming.
 So it is certainly
> not enough to diminish the value of the Jordanes' Scandza
> chapters to make Scandinavian origin unlikely.

I presented my summary of the early medieval topoi to show that the
Scandza topos has no more value than the Troy topos or the biblical
topos. This is particularly obvious when compared to the use and
development of these topoi for other tribes like the Saxons and
Franks. The obvious conclusion from this is that the Goths origin
cannot be established on the basis of Jordanes' Scandza, Troy or
biblical topos.




>There
> must be some added indications of other origin?


Why is that? Archaeological evidence shows that the Wielbark culture
is an indigenous culture of the middle Vistula area, closest related
to the Oxthoefte and Oder/Warthe cultures, and contemporary authors
like Tacitus agree with that. We don't need to always look for another
geographical region as place of origin. Or to turn the argument
around; where did the Gauta in Sweden originate? And where did their
ancestors came from? The essence of the East Germanic tribe of the
Goths, i.e. the characteristics and traits that make them Goths
developed -with influence from all sorts of directions- in the Vistula
region. The fact that centuries later, ancient authors gave the
decendents of the Vistula Goths a Scandza, Troy and biblical origin is
of no relevance for the question of their true origins.


cheers,
Dirk



Indication
> that the Goths migrated eastward in northern Germania?
> Archeological or linguistical indications? But none have so
> far in a convincing way been forthcoming.
>
> Gothically
>
> Bertil
>
>
> In our last discussion you have repeatedly stated that certain
> Germanic tribes claimed origin from Scandinavia and used this as
prove
> for common geographical and cultic/Gautic origin. In the following I
> shall try to lay out how I think these origin claims should be
viewed
> to understand its real historical value.
>
> In my view there are at least three main early medieval topoi for
the
> origin of Germanic tribes. The Scandza topos, the biblical topos and
> the Troy topos. Most significantly, already Jordanes Getica alludes
to
> all three of them. The Scandza topos most likely originated from a
> Roman view that all northern Barbarians came from an island in the
> northern ocean; a well-spring of peoples which constantly decended
> upon the borders of the Roman world. Describtions of Scandza/Scandia
> are already found by Ptolemy. The first historians of the Goths up
to
> Jordanes picked up this view and embellished it with tribal legends.
> Jordanes' Getica than became the model for the Origo gentis
> Langobardorum, which besides the Scandza/Scadanan topos also used
the
> description of Scandza and its population from classical Roman
> sources and other elements of the Getica.
>
> The Origo Gentis in turn became the model for all (but one)
> Langobardic histories, most notably Paulus Deaconus' Historia
> Langobardorum who also used Jordanes' work directly, which can be
seen
> from a string of analogies. For example, Jordanes (Getica. I.)
> describes the Goths as coming from Scandza, where the most fertile
> people live, which is echoed by Paulus (Hist., I, 1) when he
describes
> the people in the North as fabulously fertile. Then Jordanes (Getica
> II, 10-15) provides an excurse about Britain, while Paulus (Hist. I,
> 4) provides a (completely unnecessary) excurse about the West at the
> same point. Jordanes (Getica II, 16-24) then returns so Scandza and
> describes the mid-summer night, while Paulus (Hist. I, 5-6) also
> reports about the length of days and nights on Scadanan. While the
> stories depart at this point further analogies exist like the common
> enemies the Vandals, the Amazons etc.
>
> The only Langobardic history that is relatively independent of the
> Origo is the Codis Gothanis (c800AD), which stated that the
Langobards
> came from Scatenauge at the Elbe river, and which reports about
> battles against the Saxons at Patersprunna/Paderborn. It is the only
> history that reports real historical names. However, while this is
no
> more reliable than the histories based on the Origo Gentis, it shows
> that other legends were around at the time of Paulus. Also, several
> Langobardic histories that do resort to the Scandza topos place
> Scandza on the continent (e.g. the Fredegar Chronicle).
>
> The Troy topos was of almost similar importance as the Scandza
topos.
> Even Jordanes alluded to the Troy topos for the origin of the
> Goths/Getic people. Jordanes (Getica IX 58-60)  sought to link the
> Goths' history via a dynastic relationship between the Getic king
> Telephus and the kings of Troy, to Homer's Troy. This was done in
> order to make the Goths equals with the Romans and the Getic history
> is likely based on Dio Chrysostomos. Unrelatedly, the Fredegar
> Chronicle developed a Troy topos for the origin of the Franks.
> However, most interestingly the Franks also have a Scandza topos.
When
> Frechulf got hold of Jordanes' Getica in the early 9th century, he
> changed the Troy topos of the Franks and claimed that they also
> originated from Scandza. (Freculphi Chron. I 2, 17) ".Alii vero
> affirmant eaos de Scanza insula, quae vagina gentium est, exordium
> habuisse, de qua Gothi et caeterae nations Theotiscae exierunt.".
>
> Interestingly, the Troy topos was also used for the Saxons. In
> Widukind of Corvey's second edition of Rerum gestarum Saxonicarum,
he
> claimed that the Saxons originated from Macedonia. In contrast, in
his
> first issue, Widukind had place the Saxon homeland in Scandinavia,
> saying that they were identical with the Dani et Northmanni
> (Rerum.gest. Saxon. I 2). Abbot Rudolf of Fulda in turn stated that
> the Saxons originated in Britain and had migrated from there to the
> region of Hadeln in North Germany. Interestingly, an origin from
> Britain is also alluded to in the Getica, but swiftly dismissed by
> Jordanes. It is possible that a Britainnia topos was also `in the
air'
> at this time, although its following seemed to be limited.
>
> Jordanes also alludes to a biblical origin of the Goths, which also
> adopted a life on its own in later works. Jordanes (Getica IV, 29)
> shows himself surprised that Flavius Josephus, who called the Magog
> Scythians does not also identify them as Goths since Scythians are
> Goths. Unrelatedly, Ambrosius of Milan (De fide II 16, 137f) also
made
> the identification of Goths and Magog when writing that "Gog iste
> Gothus est". Ambrosius was the basis for Isidor of Seville who also
> identified the Goths with Magog on several occasions (Isisor Hist.
> Gothorum 66).
>
> This underscores, that tribal histories are not historical accounts
>  in a modern sense. The Scandza topos is not more credible as the
Troy
> or biblical topos on the basis of these legends. Of course these
> histories do contain fragments of tribal legends that report
> historical events. However, for the Langobards, for example, several
> authors have shown that the first `true' folk memories start only as
> late as the arrival in Rugiland.
>
> But even for those tribal legends that were interwoven with
classical
> sources there must have been certain models and analogies. Thus, we
> encounter the migration with three ships in the Gothic legends and
in
> the Saxon legends, while the Langobards never mention any crossing
of
> the sea. The names of the leaders are often modelled after animals.
> The Gothic name Berig may relate to Gothic baira the bear, while the
> Saxons arrived in Britain under Hengist and Horsa (the stallion and
> the horse) and one of the Langobardic leaders is Ybor, the boar.
>
> All in all, I think that this makes it clear that the Scandza topos,
> just like the other topoi of Germanic tribal histories cannot simply
> be regarded as true and genuine memories. Especially the fact that
> several topoi were used for one and the same tribe underlines that
> none of them can simply be taken as the one and true legend. This
> would be arbitrary. For a medieval audience the Troy topos was just
as
> real or unreal as the biblical and Scandza topos. Only that the
> Scandza topos suvived longer, in fact until the present day. Most
> likely none of the topoi represented real tribal true memory, or as
> Goffart put it "As for Scandza itself, the idea that an authentic
> Gothic tradition should have referred to an island of that name is
no
> more plausible than that hoary legends among native peoples of North
> America should refer tothe State of Alaska or the Yukon Territory,
let
> alone the Hudson's Bay". (p89)
>
> cheers,
>
> Dirk
>
>
>
>
>
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