[gothic-l] Re: Possible Gothic Origin - Cultic, Linguistic and Historical References

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

Bertil,

I am sure that everybody on the list understands that there is no
evidence in the world that could change your mind on this, so lets
leave it at this.

Also, you may want to observe the curtesy of addressing me directly
when you answer my postings. 'Over the head' postings are not only
patronising they are also very tiring for all participants and lead
nowhere.

cheers,
Dirk





--- In gothic-l at y..., "Beril Haggman" <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
>
> Esteemed listmembers,
>
> The great majority that accepts Scandza/Scandinavia as the
> likely origin of the Goths is a qualified majority of post-WWII
> scholars. The massive works published that take into account
> not only Jordanes but the linguistic, archeological and historical
> material do think the extensive material motivates
> conclusions that support Gautland/Gutland theories,
> and I underline that these are theories, but at least they
> take more into account than only Jordanes history of the Goths.
> I think I have agreed with Reinhard Wenskus earlier on this list.
> He once stated that it would have been more natural for
> Jordanes, Cassiodorus and Ablabius to seek a Gothic origin
> in Rome or Troy. But these historians had their ears close to
> the belief of the Goths themselves, that Scandza (Scandinavia)
> was their home. Of course the Goths may have been wrong about
> their origin, but I think the likely extensive contacts between the
Gothic
> kingdoms and Scandinavia during for instance the Era of Great
> Migrations point to the fact that the Goths most likely went back
> to their homeland among them many Goths who had served
> in the Roman legions. The finds of a large number of brakteats
> in Scandinavia would possibly point to such ex-soldier returns.
>
> The probability is low that the idea of a Scandzan origin
> was in some way infused by the Romans to make the Goths
> believe they came from Scandza.
>
> Of course one can base the argument on the presumption that
> after the Gothic migrations there were no contacts between
> Scandinavia and the Goths in the south. The Goths were in
> some way isolated from their origin and did not remember.
> They were confused and then the wily Romans
> offered them an option of homeland. They constructed the myth
> of Scandza and made the Goths believe the came from there.
>
> Most scholars, be they Scandinavian or German, see the
> Scandza theory of Jordanes as one of many indications
> that the Goths originally came from Gautland/Gotland.
> Thus for instance Ingemar in his book _Goterkaellan_ has
> made a detailed analysis of most swcholarly work, not only
> Scandinavian, and found that it points to southern Scandinavia.
> One is eagerly awaiting a new book or essay that totally
> demolishes the theories of a Scandinavian origin. Many
> scholars of Gothic history, I am sure, are awaiting such a work
> with great anticipation. Maybe even some of our contributors
> on the list could make themselves heard although in reality
> new evidence would have to come to light. Maybe the
> Scandza home of Jordanes survived because it was
> based on the belief of Goths themselves. The Goths never
> in earnest believed in Troy or any other origin.
>
> It is unfortunate that Gothicism is not correctly defined by
> some on the list. Gothicism in its Swedish/Stockholm/Uppsala
> version was a theory that claimed that Sweden was the original
> biblical people and that all peoples had their root in Uppsala.
> So the present discussion of Gothic origin has nothing to do
> with Swedish gothicism. After all there are other Gothicisms
> such as Danish, Austrian, Spanish and British with sometimes
> other angles. If the present scholarship on the Goths would
> be a limited Swedish matter, then there would a massive Swedish
> literature on the Goths in recent years. But that is not the
> case. Instead recent scholarship are of Austrian, German
> and once, I think, of British origin.
>
> Gothically
>
> Bertil


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