[gothic-l] Re: Dieupentale/(in)Diupindala

Thu Jan 24 15:28:01 UTC 2002

le 24/01/02 9:22, faltin2001 à dirk at smra.co.uk a écrit :

--- In gothic-l at y..., Heidet Philippe <heidet.ph at w...> wrote:
> le 23/01/02 17:09, faltin2001 à dirk at s... a écrit :
> 
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> > Philippe,
> > 
> > Your question is very interesting. Comparing the
> > village name of Dieupentale to modern Swedish
> > would result in "Djupadal" or 'deep valley', a striking
> > similarity. The research in placenames with Gothic
> > relation is and interesting subject.
> > 
> > Gothically
> > 
> > Bertil
> > 
> 
> If you render the name Dieupentale as 'deep valley' into low Saxon
> you get Diependal, which is an even more striking similarity:-) But
I
> think that this does not really lead anywhere. I could imagine that
> the place name could also mean something completely different, maybe
> involving the word 'Dieu'?
> 
> Dirk  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > > Hi, my name is Philippe Heidet and I'm new to this list.
> > > I would like to know if there are some studies about wisigothic
> settlements
> > > in South-West of France. It seems that gothic language only
> disappeared in
> > > the middle of the 9th century in some areas. Especially, I think
> about the
> > > village called 'Dieupentale' [(in) diupin dala -- deep valley]
> and also all
> > > the villages with the suffix '-ens' like 'Bessens' or '-ville'
> like
> > > 'Aucamville'.
> 
> 
> Dirk,
> in 'Dictionnaire étymologique des noms de lieux en France', A.
Dauzat and
> Ch. Rostang write for Dieupentale' :<germ. 'tal' , ici le premier
mot est
> gothique 'diopen' > (with an error for the adjective) and give the
name of
> this village in 1268 : 'Dyopentala'. Even in old French, or in old
occitan,
> the word 'Dieu' (as God) was never written or pronounced
like 'Dyo'  ;-) and
> what about the meaning of '-pentala'  or actual '-pentale' ?

Hi Pilippe,

bringing 'dieu' into it was really just a wild suggestion. Can you
tell us more about these villages? Do they make up a more or less
compact settlement area? Are you aware of any historical sources that
could be linked to Gothic settlements in this specific area?

Hi Dirk

These villages don't make up compact settlement areas. We can find two or
three villages 'connected' to each other, but the great part of them are
dispersed. We find these places in the valleys of Garonne and Tarn, near the
town of Toulouse, Albi, Carcassonne ...

> For different other villages in this part of France, Dauzat &
Rostang wrote
> :
> Aucamville : 'D'un nom de femme germ. Auka- (got. aukan, augmenter)
et lat.
> villa'
> Escatalens : 'gothique skathaling, personne nuisible (allemand
Schadling)
> [Gamillscheg]' or
> Moussoulens : '(Moschelingus,934 ; Mociolens,1174) : nom d'homme
germ.
> *Muskila, de Musco et suff -ing [Gamillscheg]' ...
> We find a lot of villages with those sorts of name in this part of
France,
> especially with the -ens ending [for -ing(os) -> lat. -ingus] but
not in
> Provence and not in the rest of France.

Those place names that incorporate a Germanic personal name, how sure
is it that they are of Gothic and not Frankish origin?

Frankish colonization expanded only in the North of France. The river Loire
was a frontier and continued to be a frontier between Northern French
(langue d'oïl) and Southern French (Langue d'Oc).

> I am an Alsacian, what do you mean about the place
name 'Dieffenthal', near
> the town I'm living ? :-)

That shows that the name was used by the Alamani as well. In fact, I
think you would find several examples of such a name in several
Germanic speaking areas. Alos, the '-ingen' ending in names that you
mentioned above is also regarded as typical Alamanic.

For me, we should make a difference between '-ingos' and '-inga' ending in
the place name formation.
The two endings are plural forms with the meaning of 'people(s) of'. In
France, we find these suffixes in several regions of France :
'-ingos', as plural of East Germanic languages was 'translated' into latin
form as '-ingus', so as masc. form.
we find it in South-West of France with the '-ens' or '-enx' form,
in the area of Lyon and Savoie with the '-eins' form,
in Burgundy with the'-ans' form,
in french speaking Switzerland with the '-ens' form.
These forms correspond to Italian '-engo' (in 'Marengo','Buttanengo'
[cf:[gothic-l] Gothic Placenames?] for example)

'-inga', as plural of West Germanic languages was translated into latin form
as '-ange', so as fem. form.
in Lorraine, with '-ange' form (also translating German ending '-ingen'),
in Burgundy, with also the '-ange' or '-anche' form.
in Alsace, with the '-ingen' form (plur. '-inga' -> German form '-ingen')

For '-ingos' forms, we can presume for '-ens' or '-enx' forms of South-West
of France, corresponding to the late visigothic kingdom, that they are
Gothic settlements; for the others '-ingos' forms, we can also presume that
they are Burgondian settlements according to the idea that Burgondians spoke
an East Germanic language.
In that case, '-inga' forms in Burgundy ('-ange') should be as Alaman's
settlements.   

Thanks for the information.
Dirk

-Philippe Heidet- 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Access Your PC from Anywhere
It's Easy. It's Fun. - Free Download.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/BxtVhB/7XkDAA/_ZuFAA/wWMplB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 