Help

Mon Mar 27 17:10:41 UTC 2006

Zdravim Ta,

  My mistake, of course, i ment Jonakr as their father not Jormunrek...
  Anyway, I thing that etymology -especially in the case of Erpr - which You suggested seems to be reliable - at least from
  my point of view. Im not a germanic linguist, but maybe little bit folklorist, and I thing that
  "swarthy" in the case of Erpr reflects quite good his hypothetical  structural-functional position in patterns of indoeuropean narrative  tradition.
Thanx

Guenther Ramm <ualarauans at yahoo.com> wrote:        Hi!
    I will try to answer both, but you should look in other replies cause I am not most competent here.
   1. I am not sure Erpr is referred to as Jörmunreks son in any of the  existing sources. In Guðrunarhvöt he is a son of Guðrún and king  Jónakr. In Hamðismál you can meet two distinct persons called Erpr –  Erpr Jónakrs sonr ok Guðrunar (together with Sörli and Hamðir) and Erpr  Atla sonr (together with Eitill his brother). The latters were killed  by Guðrún herself to make Atli suffer for the murder of her kin as it  is said in Atlakviða (“Kallar-a þú síðan / til knéa þinna / Erp né  Eitil / ölreifa tvá” Ak. 38) and Hamðismál (“Atla þóttisk þú stríða /  at Erps morði / ok at Eitils aldrlagi” Hm. 8). If you mean them or  those three brothers (Erpr, Sörli and Hamðir), who in Hamðismál rode  out to kill Jörmunrekr and thus avenge their sister Svanhildr (“at  hefna Svanhildar” Hm. 2), I can offer following ideas (sorry for  eventual absence of proper references as I have no large library at  hand in the moment):
    PG. *erpaz meant “brown”, swarthy”, “dark-haired” (of persons),  cf. OE eorp; OHG erpf etc. In Old Norse jarpr (e > ja) was the  common form. Erpr as a name seems to have been borrowed from the  continent as well as the whole plot of the story, where this name was  originally applied to one of the sons of Attila (ON Atli). Erpr and  Eitill are most often supposed to be Germanic substitutes for actual  names of Attila’s sons as recorded by Jordanes ([H]ernac and Ellac –  Getica 266 resp. 262) and Priscus  (’Ηρνάχ – Fragmenta 36).  What these had meant to Huns or rather Alans (if Iranic as I heard) I  don’t know (it would be very interesting to learn). But Erpr was  definitely given the meaning “swarthy”, “dark-haired” with special  reference to anthropological peculiarities of Huns as compared with  contemporary Teutons. This can be seen from calling Erpr “swarthy boy”  (“jarpskammr” Hm. 12) and “bastard” (“hornungr” Hm. 14) by his brethren  before they
 slew him. Note that
   he was born “of another mother” (“inn sundrmæðri” Hm. 13), maybe she was thought to be of Hunnish origin.
    Sörli and Hamðir are also mentioned by Jordanes as Sarus and  Ammius (Getica 129). These at least seem to be Germanic. G. Köbler  (Köbler Gerhard. Gotisches Wörterbuch.  – 2. Auflage, 1989 at http://www.koeblergerhard.de/)  derives lat.-germ. Sarus from Gothic sarwa pl. “arms”, “war equipment”.  If so, it would be *Sarws (?) in Gothic. Diminutive *Sarwila would  regularly produce Sörli in ON.
    Ammius is supposed to be *Hamjis (ibidem). Somewhere else I saw  *Hamathius (from non-attested *hama- “cloth”, “body” and thius  “servant”) that would better correspond with ON Hamðir.

    2. OE Geatas (= ON Gautar) are NOT Goths though relative to  them. Gautar were a tribe that did not move from Sweden. The names  *Gauta- and *Guta- are certainly close cognate but still distinct  (different stages of the second Ablaut class – is this the proper  English terminology?)

    By the way, colleagues, did anyone try to reconstruct Gothic  “liuth” of that sad story about Sarus and Ammius and their sister?

    Best regards
    Ualarauans

  michalcigan <michalcigan at yahoo.com> wrote:  Could someone help me? 
  I have two questions, problems...
  1/I search for the meaning, or ethymology of the names of Jormunrek's
  sons, especially Erpr. Any ideas?
  2/And secon one, from wikipedia I have an information, that old
  english Geates/jeates/- in Beowulf located in Scandinavia - are Goths
  /it should be a reminiscence on their original homeland befor "the
  exodus" southward from south scandinavia/.
  Can I Belive this idea?  

  You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. 

  ---------------------------------
    YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 

      Visit your group "gothic-l" on the web.

      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   gothic-l-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 

  ---------------------------------

  Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.  

---------------------------------
    YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS  

    Visit your group "gothic-l" on the web.

    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
 gothic-l-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.  

---------------------------------

---------------------------------
Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make  PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    gothic-l-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/