Use of Gothic language in Spain

[llama_nom]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 1. Leo Wiener: Commentary to the Germanic Laws and Medieval 
> Documents:
> > "In Spain the Gothic language existed as late as the year 1091, 
> for it
> > was in that year prohibited by a decree of the Synod of 
> Leon."  "'Et
> > interfuit etiam Renerius legatus, et Romanae ecclesiae Cardinalis,
> > ibidemque celebrato concilio cum Bernardo Toletano primate, multa 
> de
> > officijs ecclesiae statuerunt, et etiam de caetero omnes scriptores
> > omissa litera Toletana, quam Gulfilas Gothorum Episcopus adinuenit,
> > Gallicis literis vterentur,' Roderici Toletani (Rodrigo Ximenes)
> > Chronicon, lib, VI, cap. XXX. See Hefele, Conciliengeschichte, 2nd
> > ed., vol. V, p. 201. The assertion made somewhere that the 
> reference
> > is to a calligraphy and not to the Gothic language is without any
> > foundation, for the Gothic alphabet was never used for anything but
> > Gothic."  Admittedly Wiener expresses some eccentric views 
> elsewhere
> > in this book and disputes the generally accepted chronology of the
> > surviving Gothic manuscripts, but I'd be curious to know what 
> people
> > make of this quote.  Of course, even if this does indicate the
> > survival of the Gothic written language, it doesn't necessarily 
> mean
> > that it was still spoken.
> 
> It's very difficult, though tempting, to think that Gothic was 
> spoken up to the 11th century. My first impression of the quote is 
> that it says about a single letter (litera Toletana vs. Gallicis 
> literis) which had been borrowed from the Gothic (or maybe some 
> other forgotten alphabet) into the mode of writing of Iberian 
> scribes. It could be the letter for þ, for example. Like Old English 
> scribes who retained several runic letters (þ and w, if I remember 
> right) in the Latin-based alphabet of their manuscripts.


That's another intriguing possibility, and raises the question of
whether these supplementary letters were used because Gothic was being
written with the Roman alphabet, or if they'd been taken over by
writers of Latin.  On the other hand, Traupman: New College Latin &
English Dictionary offers two senses in the singular: "letter" but
also "handwriting", so maybe it could refer to the Gothic script as a
whole.

> if I remember 
> right

You do.  Other runic letters were used very occasionally to stand for
the word of their name, e.g. the m-rune for "man", but 'þ' and 'w'
were the two that were adopted and fully naturalised in the Roman
alphabet as used for writing Old English.




> 
> > 2. Tabula gentes, 550.  I'd be interested to know more about this
> > document and the context of the term Valagothi.  Is it used 
> anywhere
> > else in texts of this time and place?  Is the prefix Vala- used
> > elsewhere in a similar context?  Is linguistic 'Romanisation' the 
> only
> > possible interpretation?  The Valagothi also are named in the 
> Historia
> > Brittonum, in a passage tracing the supposed descent of 
> contemporary
> > peoples from the Hebrew patriarchs of the Bible, I:17: "Armenon 
> autem
> > habuit quinque filios: Gothus, Valagothus, Gebidus, Burgundus,
> > Longobardus. [...]. ab Armenone autem quinque: Gothi, Valagothi,
> > Gebidi, Burgundi, Longobardi."  This text may go back to the 11th 
> c.,
> > although it has traditionally been attributed to Nennius, d. 809.
> 
> There was a name Valgautr which Cleasby-Vigfusson lead back to val-
>  "Roman", not to val "slain". I don't know if it's relevant here.


That's quite possible, although how exactly these names were
understood at any one time might be a matter of speculation.  It
certainly has the meaning Roman/Celtic/non-Germanic at various times
in various Germanic languages.  Perhaps the earliest example is the
Ancient Nordic Tjurkö inscription contains the word 'walhakurne'
(dative singular), usually interpreted as a kenning for gold, "Roman
corn."  And the 'serki valrauða' offered in Atlakviða are perhaps
golden red shirts, rather than shirts red with gore; I imagine such a
present would be a bit of a faux pas even for Huns!  I was just
wondering if there was any more context to the use of the term
specifically in France at this time, if it is attested there in any
other texts, and how sure we can be that it denotes Roman language as
opposed to Roman culture, appearance, Roman luxury/wealth/opulence or
style.  I'm not saying that it necessarily doesn't denote language,
just wondering how we could narrow down the possibilities.


> [...]
> > 8. Placenames.  A complex issue, obviously.  It seems that there 
> are
> > placenames in Iberia and France attributed to the Goths, but we
> > haven't come to any agreement about what their distribution might 
> show
> > about how long the language survived.  We might have to consider 
> that
> > naming traditions could have outlasted the Gothic language, and 
> that
> > placenames could have been formed by analogy with other placenames
> > using Gothic elements, even by Romance speakers.  Compare the use 
> of
> > -ville as a suffix in US placenames.
> 
> The city of Burgos – is it a Gothic name (baurgs)?


I always assumed so.  It's the one that immediately leaps out at you
when you look at a map.  Are there smaller places with the same name
too?  A number of websites mention the Gothic origin of the name, but
I don't know whether any cite scholarly sources.  The citation of
Wright's primer by the Wikipedia article may just be to confirm the
form of the Gothic word, rather than back up its identification as the
origin of the Spanish placename.  One person speculates in a forum
that this word might have been adopted already into Latin as a naming
element.

LN

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/gothic-l/attachments/20070730/5a65f212/attachment.htm>