A short gothic poem

Grsartor at AOL.COM Grsartor at AOL.COM
Tue Jul 9 08:35:12 UTC 2013


Besides "tagl" there is also "skuft", another neuter noun, as a word for  
hair. Both words translate the same Greek (thrix). Lehmann's dictionary 
relates  it to words implying a heap or bundle.
 
Gerry T.
 
 
In a message dated 08/07/2013 23:43:27 GMT Daylight Time,  
duke.co at sbcglobal.net writes:

does  someone  haf a definitive words for nose and hair......i think hair 
is  tagla , but back in those days all the goths had long hair and i assume 
they  were talkin about putting their hair as a pony tail......not sure

---  On Sun, 7/7/13, Edmund <edmundfairfax at yahoo.ca> wrote:


From:  Edmund <edmundfairfax at yahoo.ca>
Subject: [gothic-l] Re: A short  gothic poem
To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, July 7, 2013,  4:30 PM







Dear Gerry,

I have done  some checking, as promised, and can relay the following.

1) Earlier  attempts to equate the wisan- and wairthan-passive forms with 
the etymological  equivalents in modern German have been shown to be 
misguided and ultimately  misrepresentative of the linguistic facts. A study done by 
Anneliese  Bammesberger entitled "Die Deutung partiell konkurriender 
Formen:  Ueberlegungen zum Gotischen Was-, Warth-Passiv" (in >Befund und Deutung.  
Zum Verhaeltnis von Empirie und Interpretation in Sprach- und  
Literaturwissenschaft< 1979) has shown that the

'was-' und  'warth-'Passiv werden in gleicher Weise zum Ausdruck 
passivischer Bedeutung  verwendet. Zwischen diesen beiden Morphemgruppen sind 
Unterschiede in der  syntaktisch-semanatischen Funktion nicht ueberzeugend 
nachzuweisen. (p.  108)

In other words, there is, on the whole, no demonstrable difference  in 
meaning between the pseudo-auxiliaries 'wisan' and 'wairthan' in the  formation 
of the paraphrastic passive, and that "'warth-' wie 'was-'Passiv  kann 
griechischen Aorist oder Perfekt entsprechen" ('the 'warth-' like the  
'was-'passive can correspond to the Greek aorist or perfect'). To cite only a  couple 
of her examples:

'gabaurans warth' (J9,20) = aorist, versus  'galothoths warth' (C7,18) = 
perfect
'gabaurans was' (G4,23) = perfect,  versus 'galothoths wast' (C7,21) = 
aorist

This means ultimately that  Gothic lacks an unambiguous way of showing a 
stative versus an active sense in  the paraphrastic passive.

2) The example I cited in an earlier e-mail,  with 'haitada' ('is called'), 
seems to have caused some confusion because of  my gloss. 'Haitan' means 
simply 'to have as one's name, to be named, to be  called'. The gloss 'to be 
called' need not imply reiteration -- "keep on  calling him" as you worded 
it. Thus the line I cited could also be translated  'Barabbas or Jesus, whose 
name is Christ'. This is clearly stative. And I have  found some further 
examples wherein a stative sense is quite clear:

us  thammei all fadreinis in himina jah ana airtha namnjada (E3,15) 'whence 
every  family in heaven and on earth is named'

swethauh ei ufarassau izwis  frijonds mins frijoda (2C12,15) 'but such that 
loving you more, will I be  loved less'

fram thammei gafahanai habanda (2T2,26) 'by whom they are  held captive'

As these examples show, a stative sense is in fact  possible with inflected 
passives.

The foregoing then means that the  phrase "is buried" can be translated 
indifferently as 'filhada' or 'ist  fulhans'.

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Edmund"  <edmundfairfax at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> My objection was in  fact NOT to the use of the past participle in the 
poem but rather to the form  "fulhada", which is a confusion of a past 
participle and an inflected rather  than paraphrastic present passive form; if an 
inflected present passive form  is to be used, then it must be 'filhada' or a 
prefixed form of the  same.
> 
> As you rightly observe, the paraphrastic passive  construction could also 
be used to form present passives, with a present or  future reference. 
Given that the verb 'wisan' is inherently stative, the form  'ist fulhans' is 
naturally to be interpreted as a stative passive. That the  inflected pres. 
passive cannot have a stative meaning, however, I have my  doubts, but at this 
point, I will do more research and report my findings in  due course.
> 
> Certainly, the use of 'ist fulhans' (with the  past part. properly 
agreeing with whatever word it is to modify), or by  ellipsis simply the past 
part. alone, would seem to be a very acceptable  choice in the context of the 
poem. The following example is very close in  sense:
> 
> ni waiht auk ist gahulith thatei ni andhuljaidau  (Mat10,26) 'for nothing 
is hidden that may not be revealed'
> 
>  To my thinking, the verb 'affilhan' ('to bury away' so as to hide) 
seemed apt  given the context of the poem: the stress seems to be on the absolute 
loss God  knows where -- 'buried in an abyss of oblivion', I believe it 
was. The prefix  'af-' seemed to heighten the effect but, of course, need not 
be used.
>  
> 
> 
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Grsartor@  wrote:
> >
> > Sorry to harp. Here is why I think that  "fulhan" rather than "filhada" 
was 
> > right:
> > 
>  > The formula "it is written" occurs repeatedly in the New Testament, 
and  is 
> > expressed by Wulfila as "gameliþ ist" or "gamelid ist".  Example:
> > 
> > Matt 11:10 sa ist auk bi þanei gameliþ  ist: sai, ik insandja aggilu 
> > meinana faura þus, saei gamanweiþ  wig þeinana faura þus. 
> > 
> > This is he of whom it is  written,
> > 
> > "Behold, I send my messenger before thy  face,
> > who shall prepare thy way before thee."
> >  
> > There are many other examples, such as Mark 1:2, Mark 7:6, Luke  2:23, 
3:4, 
> > 4:4, 4:8.
> > 
> > It is clear,  then, that to the question "where is the word of the 
prophet" 
> > a  possible answer would be
> > 
> > gameliþ [ist] in malmin -  [it is] written in the sand,
> > 
> > Gothic, like English,  using a past participle.
> > 
> > And so, if the question is  "where is our heritage", as in the poem we 
have 
> > been concerned  with, an answer like "buried in ..." would surely 
contain 
> >  "buried" as a past participle, wherefore my belief that the original 
>  > "fulhan" was right.
> > 
> > Now let us consider  Edmund's counterexample:
> > 
> > "hwana wileith ei fraletau  izwis? Barabban thau Jesu, saei haitada 
> > Xristus?" (Mat.  27,17)
> > 'Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas or Jesus,  who is 
called 
> > Christ?'
> > 
> > Here, the  present passive (haitada) may have been chosen because the 
sense 
> >  was that Christos is what people keep calling him. On the other hand, 
"it  
> > is written" refers to something written once and for all. I  think the 
> > latter example is more relevant to the answer for what  has happened to 
our 
> > heritage: it has been buried once and for  all, rather than that people 
keep 
> > burying it.
> >  
> > A look at the original Greek perhaps supports my conjecture. For  
> > corresponding to Edmund's quoted "saei haitada Xristus" it has  "ton 
legomenon 
> > Christon", meaning "the one called Christ" -  using for "called" a 
present passive 
> > participle, legomenon. On  the other hand, "gamelid ist" translates a 
Greek 
> > perfect,  "gegraptai" - it has been written. I am told that the Greek 
> >  perfect expresses an abiding consequence of an action, and Wulfila 
chose to  
> > represent this by the same construction as English uses. If our  
heritage has 
> > been buried, or lies buried, it is in another  abiding state, and so I 
guess 
> > that Greek would use a perfect,  and Wulfila would have represented 
this by 
> > "fulhan ist".
>  > 
> > As for compounds of "filhan", Matt 8:22 uses "gafilhan" for  burying 
(leave 
> > the dead to bury their dead). On the other hand,  the suggested 
"affilhan" 
> > is used in Luke 10:21 to mean to hide  something away.
> > 
> > Mark 14:8 uses "usfilh" to mean  burial.
> > 
> > Luke 9:59 and 9:60 uses "usfilhan" for  bury
> > 
> > John 12:7 "gafilh" is burial.
> >  
> > Gerry T.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > In a message dated 06/07/2013 00:10:03 GMT Daylight Time,  
> > edmundfairfax@ writes:
> > 
> > 
> >  1) "sijain" should be 'sijai'
> > 
> > 2) There seems to be  much confusion about the formation of the Gothic 
> > passive. A  careful look in a good grammar, such as Braune's (5.1, 
2004), will 
>  > reveal that there is an inflected passive only in the present 
indicative  and 
> > present subjunctive; in the preterite, a paraphrastic  construction is 
used 
> > consisting of a suitable preterite form of  the auxiliary '
wisan/wairthan' 
> > and the past participle of the  main verb. I quote from the Braune:
> > 
> > "Das Passiv ist  nur noch in einigen Formen des Indikativ und Optativ 
> > Praes.  vorhanden...die fehlenden Passivformen werden umschrieben durch 
das Part.  
> > Praet. mit dem entsprechenden Formen von 'wairthan' oder  'wisan', z.B. 
> > 'daupjada' "werde getauft' (Mk. 10,38), aber  'daupiths was' 'wurde 
getauft' 
> > (Mk. 1,19)."
> >  
> > The present passive is formed by using the stem of the  infinitive, not 
the 
> > preterite. Thus, 'fulhada' is altogether  incorrect.
> > 
> > It should also be noted that there is no  perfect in Gothic. A passive 
can 
> > have both an active or stative  sense. As an example of the stative 
sense, 
> > consider the  following line from the Gothic Bible:
> > 
> > "hwana  wileith ei fraletau izwis? Barabban thau Jesu, saei haitada 
> >  Xristus?" (Mat. 27,17)
> > 'Whom do you want me to release to you?  Barabbas or Jesus, who is 
called 
> > Christ?'
> > 
>  > Here 'haitada', the third-person singular present indicative passive 
of  
> > the verb 'haitan', clearly has a stative rather than active  sense; the 
> > subordinate clause could also be rendered as 'whose  name is Christ'. 
Thus, it 
> > does not follow that ''filhada' 'is  buried' must have only an active 
sense, 
> > and not a stative  sense.
> > 
> > 3) The Goths employed the convention of  scriptio continua ('continuous 
> > writing'), that is, writing  without spaces between words (e.g. 
> >  "tobeornottobethatisthequestion"). But in modern editions, words are 
normally  separated 
> > by spaces, and prefixes and suffixes are written  together with the 
word they 
> > belong to without the use of  hyphens. Thus "af-grundithai" ought to be 
> > written  'afgrundithai'.
> > 
> > 4) The form "afilhada" lacks the  'f' of the prefix and should be 
> > 'affilhada'.
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In  gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Grsartor@ wrote:
> > >
> > >  Sorry to quibble at this stage, but:
> > > 
> > > (i)  I think "sijain" should be "sijai".
> > > 
> > > (ii)  I think the original choice of "fulhan" for "(lying) buried" 
was 
> >  > right. The form "filhada" means that a thing is buried in the sense 
that  
> > someone 
> > > is in the act or habit of burying it.  Since the burial is complete 
you 
> > > want the past participle,  which is passive in sense. In the modern 
> > Germanic 
> >  > languages it is apparently active when used with "have" as an 
>  > auxiliary, but 
> > > this construction I think was adopted  from the Latin tongues, and 
does 
> > not 
> > > appear  in Gothic. In any case the true passive sense is brought out 
in 
> >  > modern German, or occasionally in English, e.g.
> > >  
> > > The police have got the building surrounded (= the police  have 
> > surrounded 
> > > the building).
> >  > 
> > > Gerry T.
> > > 
> > > 
>  > > In a message dated 05/07/2013 21:19:17 GMT Daylight Time, nodead4@  
> > > writes:
> > > 
> > >  Understood!
> > > 
> > > Therefore, the poem finally  is of this form:
> > > 
> > > Hvar ist othal unsar? /  Hvar ist arbi unsar?
> > > Afilhada ufarmaudeins af-grundithai  
> > > Hindana thizos ahwos, aiwis andéis 
> > >  Wulthag sijain fraweit. 
> > > 
> > > I was using  "heritage" as broadly meant, so I finally choose "arby" 
> > >  instead of "othal" then. I guess you should be credited in the 
> >  recording booklet!!
> > > 
> > > Many thanx to all.  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "nodead4" <nodead4@> wrote:
>  > > >
> > > > Hello all, I have composed a short poem  Gothic language. I'm not a 
> > > linguist nor an expert, so there  will be several mistakes. Some help 
is 
> > > requested to make it  right. (This is part of a song in english, but 
I 
> > wanted to  
> > > include this speech in a middle section).
> > >  > 
> > > > 
> > > > Hvar ist othal unsar?  (where is our heritage?)
> > > > Fulhans ana ufar maudeis  af-grunditha (buried into the abyss of 
> > oblivion)
> >  > > Thairh thata ahwa, aiws and�is (across the river, the end of an  
> > era)
> > > > Wolthags fraweit wisan. (Glorious  revenge be)
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > >  > Thanx in advance.
> > > >
> > > 
> >  > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  ------------------------------------
> > > 
> > > You  are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank 
> >  email 
> > > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.Yahoo!  Groups Links
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
>  > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this  message have been removed]
> > >
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> >  ------------------------------------
> > 
> > You are a  member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank 
email 
> >  to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.Yahoo! Groups Links
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>  >
>








[Non-text portions of this  message have been  removed]



------------------------------------

You are a  member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email 
to  <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.Yahoo! Groups Links





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/gothic-l/attachments/20130709/09b0f266/attachment.htm>


More information about the Gothic-l mailing list