A short gothic poem

faltin2001 d.faltin at HISPEED.CH
Thu Jul 25 12:03:28 UTC 2013


>  
> In a message dated 08/07/2013 23:43:27 GMT Daylight Time,  
> duke.co at ... writes:
> 
> does  someone  haf a definitive words for nose and hair......i think hair 
> is  tagla , but back in those days all the goths had long hair and i assume 
> they  were talkin about putting their hair as a pony tail......not sure
> 


Hi,

that is an interesting point. If "tagl" meant (hair-) tail it could be related to the dialectic German word "Zagel" meaing tail (of a horse or cow).

Cheers,
Dirk






> ---  On Sun, 7/7/13, Edmund <edmundfairfax at ...> wrote:
> 
> 
> From:  Edmund <edmundfairfax at ...>
> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: A short  gothic poem
> To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, July 7, 2013,  4:30 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Gerry,
> 
> I have done  some checking, as promised, and can relay the following.
> 
> 1) Earlier  attempts to equate the wisan- and wairthan-passive forms with 
> the etymological  equivalents in modern German have been shown to be 
> misguided and ultimately  misrepresentative of the linguistic facts. A study done by 
> Anneliese  Bammesberger entitled "Die Deutung partiell konkurriender 
> Formen:  Ueberlegungen zum Gotischen Was-, Warth-Passiv" (in >Befund und Deutung.  
> Zum Verhaeltnis von Empirie und Interpretation in Sprach- und  
> Literaturwissenschaft< 1979) has shown that the
> 
> 'was-' und  'warth-'Passiv werden in gleicher Weise zum Ausdruck 
> passivischer Bedeutung  verwendet. Zwischen diesen beiden Morphemgruppen sind 
> Unterschiede in der  syntaktisch-semanatischen Funktion nicht ueberzeugend 
> nachzuweisen. (p.  108)
> 
> In other words, there is, on the whole, no demonstrable difference  in 
> meaning between the pseudo-auxiliaries 'wisan' and 'wairthan' in the  formation 
> of the paraphrastic passive, and that "'warth-' wie 'was-'Passiv  kann 
> griechischen Aorist oder Perfekt entsprechen" ('the 'warth-' like the  
> 'was-'passive can correspond to the Greek aorist or perfect'). To cite only a  couple 
> of her examples:
> 
> 'gabaurans warth' (J9,20) = aorist, versus  'galothoths warth' (C7,18) = 
> perfect
> 'gabaurans was' (G4,23) = perfect,  versus 'galothoths wast' (C7,21) = 
> aorist
> 
> This means ultimately that  Gothic lacks an unambiguous way of showing a 
> stative versus an active sense in  the paraphrastic passive.
> 
> 2) The example I cited in an earlier e-mail,  with 'haitada' ('is called'), 
> seems to have caused some confusion because of  my gloss. 'Haitan' means 
> simply 'to have as one's name, to be named, to be  called'. The gloss 'to be 
> called' need not imply reiteration -- "keep on  calling him" as you worded 
> it. Thus the line I cited could also be translated  'Barabbas or Jesus, whose 
> name is Christ'. This is clearly stative. And I have  found some further 
> examples wherein a stative sense is quite clear:
> 
> us  thammei all fadreinis in himina jah ana airtha namnjada (E3,15) 'whence 
> every  family in heaven and on earth is named'
> 
> swethauh ei ufarassau izwis  frijonds mins frijoda (2C12,15) 'but such that 
> loving you more, will I be  loved less'
> 
> fram thammei gafahanai habanda (2T2,26) 'by whom they are  held captive'
> 
> As these examples show, a stative sense is in fact  possible with inflected 
> passives.
> 
> The foregoing then means that the  phrase "is buried" can be translated 
> indifferently as 'filhada' or 'ist  fulhans'.
> 
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Edmund"  <edmundfairfax@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > My objection was in  fact NOT to the use of the past participle in the 
> poem but rather to the form  "fulhada", which is a confusion of a past 
> participle and an inflected rather  than paraphrastic present passive form; if an 
> inflected present passive form  is to be used, then it must be 'filhada' or a 
> prefixed form of the  same.
> > 
> > As you rightly observe, the paraphrastic passive  construction could also 
> be used to form present passives, with a present or  future reference. 
> Given that the verb 'wisan' is inherently stative, the form  'ist fulhans' is 
> naturally to be interpreted as a stative passive. That the  inflected pres. 
> passive cannot have a stative meaning, however, I have my  doubts, but at this 
> point, I will do more research and report my findings in  due course.
> > 
> > Certainly, the use of 'ist fulhans' (with the  past part. properly 
> agreeing with whatever word it is to modify), or by  ellipsis simply the past 
> part. alone, would seem to be a very acceptable  choice in the context of the 
> poem. The following example is very close in  sense:
> > 
> > ni waiht auk ist gahulith thatei ni andhuljaidau  (Mat10,26) 'for nothing 
> is hidden that may not be revealed'
> > 
> >  To my thinking, the verb 'affilhan' ('to bury away' so as to hide) 
> seemed apt  given the context of the poem: the stress seems to be on the absolute 
> loss God  knows where -- 'buried in an abyss of oblivion', I believe it 
> was. The prefix  'af-' seemed to heighten the effect but, of course, need not 
> be used.
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Grsartor@  wrote:
> > >
> > > Sorry to harp. Here is why I think that  "fulhan" rather than "filhada" 
> was 
> > > right:
> > > 
> >  > The formula "it is written" occurs repeatedly in the New Testament, 
> and  is 
> > > expressed by Wulfila as "gameliþ ist" or "gamelid ist".  Example:
> > > 
> > > Matt 11:10 sa ist auk bi þanei gameliþ  ist: sai, ik insandja aggilu 
> > > meinana faura þus, saei gamanweiþ  wig þeinana faura þus. 
> > > 
> > > This is he of whom it is  written,
> > > 
> > > "Behold, I send my messenger before thy  face,
> > > who shall prepare thy way before thee."
> > >  
> > > There are many other examples, such as Mark 1:2, Mark 7:6, Luke  2:23, 
> 3:4, 
> > > 4:4, 4:8.
> > > 
> > > It is clear,  then, that to the question "where is the word of the 
> prophet" 
> > > a  possible answer would be
> > > 
> > > gameliþ [ist] in malmin -  [it is] written in the sand,
> > > 
> > > Gothic, like English,  using a past participle.
> > > 
> > > And so, if the question is  "where is our heritage", as in the poem we 
> have 
> > > been concerned  with, an answer like "buried in ..." would surely 
> contain 
> > >  "buried" as a past participle, wherefore my belief that the original 
> >  > "fulhan" was right.
> > > 
> > > Now let us consider  Edmund's counterexample:
> > > 
> > > "hwana wileith ei fraletau  izwis? Barabban thau Jesu, saei haitada 
> > > Xristus?" (Mat.  27,17)
> > > 'Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas or Jesus,  who is 
> called 
> > > Christ?'
> > > 
> > > Here, the  present passive (haitada) may have been chosen because the 
> sense 
> > >  was that Christos is what people keep calling him. On the other hand, 
> "it  
> > > is written" refers to something written once and for all. I  think the 
> > > latter example is more relevant to the answer for what  has happened to 
> our 
> > > heritage: it has been buried once and for  all, rather than that people 
> keep 
> > > burying it.
> > >  
> > > A look at the original Greek perhaps supports my conjecture. For  
> > > corresponding to Edmund's quoted "saei haitada Xristus" it has  "ton 
> legomenon 
> > > Christon", meaning "the one called Christ" -  using for "called" a 
> present passive 
> > > participle, legomenon. On  the other hand, "gamelid ist" translates a 
> Greek 
> > > perfect,  "gegraptai" - it has been written. I am told that the Greek 
> > >  perfect expresses an abiding consequence of an action, and Wulfila 
> chose to  
> > > represent this by the same construction as English uses. If our  
> heritage has 
> > > been buried, or lies buried, it is in another  abiding state, and so I 
> guess 
> > > that Greek would use a perfect,  and Wulfila would have represented 
> this by 
> > > "fulhan ist".
> >  > 
> > > As for compounds of "filhan", Matt 8:22 uses "gafilhan" for  burying 
> (leave 
> > > the dead to bury their dead). On the other hand,  the suggested 
> "affilhan" 
> > > is used in Luke 10:21 to mean to hide  something away.
> > > 
> > > Mark 14:8 uses "usfilh" to mean  burial.
> > > 
> > > Luke 9:59 and 9:60 uses "usfilhan" for  bury
> > > 
> > > John 12:7 "gafilh" is burial.
> > >  
> > > Gerry T.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  
> > > In a message dated 06/07/2013 00:10:03 GMT Daylight Time,  
> > > edmundfairfax@ writes:
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  1) "sijain" should be 'sijai'
> > > 
> > > 2) There seems to be  much confusion about the formation of the Gothic 
> > > passive. A  careful look in a good grammar, such as Braune's (5.1, 
> 2004), will 
> >  > reveal that there is an inflected passive only in the present 
> indicative  and 
> > > present subjunctive; in the preterite, a paraphrastic  construction is 
> used 
> > > consisting of a suitable preterite form of  the auxiliary '
> wisan/wairthan' 
> > > and the past participle of the  main verb. I quote from the Braune:
> > > 
> > > "Das Passiv ist  nur noch in einigen Formen des Indikativ und Optativ 
> > > Praes.  vorhanden...die fehlenden Passivformen werden umschrieben durch 
> das Part.  
> > > Praet. mit dem entsprechenden Formen von 'wairthan' oder  'wisan', z.B. 
> > > 'daupjada' "werde getauft' (Mk. 10,38), aber  'daupiths was' 'wurde 
> getauft' 
> > > (Mk. 1,19)."
> > >  
> > > The present passive is formed by using the stem of the  infinitive, not 
> the 
> > > preterite. Thus, 'fulhada' is altogether  incorrect.
> > > 
> > > It should also be noted that there is no  perfect in Gothic. A passive 
> can 
> > > have both an active or stative  sense. As an example of the stative 
> sense, 
> > > consider the  following line from the Gothic Bible:
> > > 
> > > "hwana  wileith ei fraletau izwis? Barabban thau Jesu, saei haitada 
> > >  Xristus?" (Mat. 27,17)
> > > 'Whom do you want me to release to you?  Barabbas or Jesus, who is 
> called 
> > > Christ?'
> > > 
> >  > Here 'haitada', the third-person singular present indicative passive 
> of  
> > > the verb 'haitan', clearly has a stative rather than active  sense; the 
> > > subordinate clause could also be rendered as 'whose  name is Christ'. 
> Thus, it 
> > > does not follow that ''filhada' 'is  buried' must have only an active 
> sense, 
> > > and not a stative  sense.
> > > 
> > > 3) The Goths employed the convention of  scriptio continua ('continuous 
> > > writing'), that is, writing  without spaces between words (e.g. 
> > >  "tobeornottobethatisthequestion"). But in modern editions, words are 
> normally  separated 
> > > by spaces, and prefixes and suffixes are written  together with the 
> word they 
> > > belong to without the use of  hyphens. Thus "af-grundithai" ought to be 
> > > written  'afgrundithai'.
> > > 
> > > 4) The form "afilhada" lacks the  'f' of the prefix and should be 
> > > 'affilhada'.
> > >  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In  gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Grsartor@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > >  Sorry to quibble at this stage, but:
> > > > 
> > > > (i)  I think "sijain" should be "sijai".
> > > > 
> > > > (ii)  I think the original choice of "fulhan" for "(lying) buried" 
> was 
> > >  > right. The form "filhada" means that a thing is buried in the sense 
> that  
> > > someone 
> > > > is in the act or habit of burying it.  Since the burial is complete 
> you 
> > > > want the past participle,  which is passive in sense. In the modern 
> > > Germanic 
> > >  > languages it is apparently active when used with "have" as an 
> >  > auxiliary, but 
> > > > this construction I think was adopted  from the Latin tongues, and 
> does 
> > > not 
> > > > appear  in Gothic. In any case the true passive sense is brought out 
> in 
> > >  > modern German, or occasionally in English, e.g.
> > > >  
> > > > The police have got the building surrounded (= the police  have 
> > > surrounded 
> > > > the building).
> > >  > 
> > > > Gerry T.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> >  > > In a message dated 05/07/2013 21:19:17 GMT Daylight Time, nodead4@  
> > > > writes:
> > > > 
> > > >  Understood!
> > > > 
> > > > Therefore, the poem finally  is of this form:
> > > > 
> > > > Hvar ist othal unsar? /  Hvar ist arbi unsar?
> > > > Afilhada ufarmaudeins af-grundithai  
> > > > Hindana thizos ahwos, aiwis andéis 
> > > >  Wulthag sijain fraweit. 
> > > > 
> > > > I was using  "heritage" as broadly meant, so I finally choose "arby" 
> > > >  instead of "othal" then. I guess you should be credited in the 
> > >  recording booklet!!
> > > > 
> > > > Many thanx to all.  
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >  --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "nodead4" <nodead4@> wrote:
> >  > > >
> > > > > Hello all, I have composed a short poem  Gothic language. I'm not a 
> > > > linguist nor an expert, so there  will be several mistakes. Some help 
> is 
> > > > requested to make it  right. (This is part of a song in english, but 
> I 
> > > wanted to  
> > > > include this speech in a middle section).
> > > >  > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Hvar ist othal unsar?  (where is our heritage?)
> > > > > Fulhans ana ufar maudeis  af-grunditha (buried into the abyss of 
> > > oblivion)
> > >  > > Thairh thata ahwa, aiws and�is (across the river, the end of an  
> > > era)
> > > > > Wolthags fraweit wisan. (Glorious  revenge be)
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > >  > Thanx in advance.
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > >  > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
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