query: grammaticalization go/be.in > negation

Thu Jan 31 20:29:01 UTC 2013

Good point.  "I went mad" indicates a change of state, while "It went well" describes progress/motion.

>________________________________
> From: Hartmut Haberland <hartmut at ruc.dk>
>To: "LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG> 
>Cc: E. Bashir <ebashir at yahoo.com> 
>Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 2:03 PM
>Subject: Re: query: grammaticalization go/be.in > negation
> 
>
>Isn't that something different from what Paul suggested?
>
>"I went mad" vs. "It went well". I think the subject ([+animate] vs. dummy it) is relevant. 
>
>Hartmut Haberland
>
>
>
>Den 31-01-2013 20:56, E. Bashir skrev:
>
>And, "it went beautifully", "it's going beautifully, nicely, rather badly, better than expected, ... "
>>
>>Elena Bashir
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>________________________________
>>> From: Ian Maddieson <ianm at BERKELEY.EDU>
>>>To: LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG 
>>>Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 1:09 PM
>>>Subject: Re: query: grammaticalization go/be.in > negation
>>>
>>>
>>>... but, on the other hand, "go well", "go swimmingly", and even "go viral"  
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm not sure the negativity inheres in "go"
>>>
>>>
>>>Ian
>>>
>>>
>>>On 31 Jan 2013, at 09:10, Paul Hopper wrote:
>>>
>>>An adjective complement of English 'go'  has a negative force, e.g. go
>>>>bad, bankrupt, missing, crazy, postal [see
>>>>http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/159050.html], but not *cheerful,
>>>>*prosperous, etc.
>>>>
>>>>- French pas?
>>>>
>>>>Paul Hopper
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dear David,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>In Tamazight of Ayr Ndhir the negator of predications of identity
>>>>>
>>>>appears to be composed of the negative particle/prefix ur and a form
>>>>>
>>>>of the verb go -idd
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>(Penchoen, 1973: 63)
>>>>>
>>>>a.ism uryaz-adÌ± ur-iddhÌ£usa
>>>>>
>>>>thisman-thisNEG-go Husa
>>>>>
>>>>â€™This manâ€™s name is not Husaâ€™
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>b.ur-idd llÉ™b É›aya
>>>>>
>>>>NEG-goplay this
>>>>>
>>>>â€˜This is no gameâ€™
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>I haven't been able to verify this for other varieties of Tamazight.
>>>>>
>>>>Generally, it is my impression that this kind of extension is
>>>>>
>>>>relatively rare but it may be the case that it just hasn't been
>>>>>
>>>>studied properly. Matthew Juge (1998) has a paper on the overlapping
>>>>>
>>>>suppletion between the paradigms of ser and ir in Spanish; these verb
>>>>>
>>>>share the same suppletive form in the preterite . It's true it is the
>>>>>
>>>>affirmative variants of the verbs but still.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Best wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Ljuba
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>References
>>>>>
>>>>Juge, Matthew. 1998. On the Rise of Suppletion in Verbal Paradigms. Ms.,
>>>>>
>>>>BLS 25.
>>>>>
>>>>Penchoen, Thomas G. 1973. Tamazight of the Ayt Ndhir. Los Angeles:
>>>>>
>>>>Undena Publications.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Everett, Daniel <DEVERETT at bentley.edu>
>>>>>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>In PirahÃ£, David, the relevant construction is:
>>>>>>
>>>>hi-ab-Ã¡o-b-Ã¡
>>>>>>
>>>>it-negative-completive-perfective-remote (out of control of speaker)
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>hi-ab-a (without aspectual morphology) is used for 'no' or 'didn't'
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>The former has the sense of 'to have run out' but is very similar in
>>>>>>
>>>>many contexts to 'allgone.'
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>-- Dan
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>On Jan 31, 2013, at 6:53 AM, Hewitt, Stephen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>Hello David,
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>In Breton, yes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>Aed   eo      toud
>>>>>>>
>>>>Gone  is3sg   all
>>>>>>>
>>>>"it's all gone"
>>>>>>>
>>>>With the same meaning as in English. In French you have to use the verb
>>>>>>>
>>>>"partir" = leave, not "aller" = go.
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>Best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>Steve
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>Steve Hewitt
>>>>>>>
>>>>30 rue Charles Baudelaire
>>>>>>>
>>>>75012 PARIS
>>>>>>>
>>>>France
>>>>>>>
>>>>s.hewitt at unesco.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>+33/-0 1.45.68.06.08 work
>>>>>>>
>>>>+33/-0 6.32.13.79.42 mobile
>>>>>>>
>>>>+33/-0 1.46.28.89.16 home
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>
>>>>From: Discussion List for ALT
>>>>>>>
>>>>[mailto:LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of David Gil
>>>>>>>
>>>>Sent: 31 January 2013 05:30
>>>>>>>
>>>>To: LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>>>>>>>
>>>>Subject: query: grammaticalization go/be.in > negation
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>Dear all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>In English motherese, the expression 'allgone' is often used to express
>>>>>>>
>>>>a negative concept involving the disappearance or absence of an entity
>>>>>>>
>>>>previously present.
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>I am interested in ascertaining how common or rare it is,
>>>>>>>
>>>>cross-linguistically, for a verb of motion (eg. 'go') or location (eg.
>>>>>>>
>>>>'be in') to undergo extension of meaning, or grammaticalization, to
>>>>>>>
>>>>express various negative concepts, as in the above 'allgone' example.
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>The reason behind this query is as follows.  In Roon (an Austronesian
>>>>>>>
>>>>language of West Papua), the same verb has a range of meanings which
>>>>>>>
>>>>includes 'be in' and 'disappear'.  (The logic behind this would seem to
>>>>>>>
>>>>be that if something goes or is located somewhere else, then it is no
>>>>>>>
>>>>longer here.)   In addition, the stem on which this verb is based is
>>>>>>>
>>>>also used to form negative imperatives.  I am currently trying to
>>>>>>>
>>>>figure out whether to analyze this in terms of macrofunctionality,
>>>>>>>
>>>>polysemy, or accidental homophony, so whether similar patterns are
>>>>>>>
>>>>attested cross-linguistically would be of relevance to the choice of
>>>>>>>
>>>>analysis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>Looking forward to any responses,
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>David
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>>>>
>>>>David Gil
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>Department of Linguistics
>>>>>>>
>>>>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology Deutscher Platz 6,
>>>>>>>
>>>>D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550119
>>>>>>>
>>>>Email: gil at eva.mpg.de
>>>>>>>
>>>>Webpage:  http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-- 
>>>>Paul J. Hopper,
>>>>Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus,
>>>>Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences,
>>>>Carnegie Mellon University,
>>>>Pittsburgh, PA 15213,
>>>>Tel. 412-683-1109,
>>>>Fax 412-268-7989.
>>>>
>>>>Adjunct Professor of Linguistics,
>>>>Department of Linguistics,
>>>>University of Pittsburgh.
>>>>
>>>>Senior External Fellow,
>>>>School of Linguistics and Literature,
>>>>Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS),
>>>>Freiburg i.Br., Germany
>>>>
>>>
>>>Ian Maddieson
>>>
>>>
>>>Department of Linguistics
>>>University of New Mexico
>>>MSC03-2130
>>>Albuquerque NM 87131-0001
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
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