query: grammaticalization go/be.in > negation

Thu Jan 31 23:02:28 UTC 2013

Italian has a passive periphrasis constructed with the verb andare 'go' which can only be used with verbs which express a negative outcome. Thus:

La casa è andata distrutta 'the house was (lit. went) destroyed'
La lettera è andata perduta 'the letter got (went) lost'

but not:
*La casa è andata costruita 'the house went built'
*La lettera è andata trovata 'the house went found'

Nigel

Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA
Professor Emeritus of General & Romance Linguistics
The University of Manchester

Vice-President for Research & HE Policy, The British Academy

Linguistics & English Language
School of Arts, Languages and Cultures
The University of Manchester
Manchester M13 9PL
UK

http://www.llc.manchester.ac.uk/subjects/lel/staff/nigel-vincent/

________________________________________
From: Discussion List for ALT [LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG] on behalf of "Ekkehard König" [koenig at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE]
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 8:23 PM
To: LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: query: grammaticalization go/be.in > negation

I think that Paul Hopper's contribution was completely misunderstood
(assuming he wanted to say what I would like to point out, based on the
observations made by Eve Clark in an old edition of LANGUAGE):

In English the verbs of motion COME and GO do not only express movement
away (go) or towards a center of orientation, but also - in combination
with adjectives (or adverbials)- a movement towards a positive evaluation
(come) and a movement away from a positive evaluation and thus towards a
negative evaluation (go):

COME: alive, to one's senses, true, along, etc.
GO: wild, mad, crazy, out of one's mind, hayfire, off

But this is NEGATIVE evaluation and not NEGATION and thus probably not
what David is looking for.

Ekkehard

> And, "it went beautifully", "it's going beautifully, nicely, rather badly,
> better than expected, ... "
>
> Elena Bashir
>
>
>
>
>
>>________________________________
>> From: Ian Maddieson <ianm at BERKELEY.EDU>
>>To: LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>>Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 1:09 PM
>>Subject: Re: query: grammaticalization go/be.in > negation
>>
>>
>>... but, on the other hand, "go well", "go swimmingly", and even "go
>> viral"
>>
>>
>>I'm not sure the negativity inheres in "go"
>>
>>
>>Ian
>>
>>
>>On 31 Jan 2013, at 09:10, Paul Hopper wrote:
>>
>>An adjective complement of English 'go' has a negative force, e.g. go
>>>bad, bankrupt, missing, crazy, postal [see
>>>http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/159050.html], but not *cheerful,
>>>*prosperous, etc.
>>>
>>>- French pas?
>>>
>>>Paul Hopper
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Dear David,
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>In Tamazight of Ayr Ndhir the negator of predications of identity
>>>>
>>>appears to be composed of the negative particle/prefix ur and a form
>>>>
>>>of the verb go -idd
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>(Penchoen, 1973: 63)
>>>>
>>>a.ismuryaz-adÌ±ur-iddhÌ£usa
>>>>
>>>thisman-thisNEG-goHusa
>>>>
>>>â€™This manâ€™s name is not Husaâ€™
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>b.ur-iddllÉ™b É›aya
>>>>
>>>NEG-goplaythis
>>>>
>>>â€˜This is no gameâ€™
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>I haven't been able to verify this for other varieties of Tamazight.
>>>>
>>>Generally, it is my impression that this kind of extension is
>>>>
>>>relatively rare but it may be the case that it just hasn't been
>>>>
>>>studied properly. Matthew Juge (1998) has a paper on the overlapping
>>>>
>>>suppletion between the paradigms of ser and ir in Spanish; these verb
>>>>
>>>share the same suppletive form in the preterite . It's true it is the
>>>>
>>>affirmative variants of the verbs but still.
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>Ljuba
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>References
>>>>
>>>Juge, Matthew. 1998. On the Rise of Suppletion in Verbal Paradigms. Ms.,
>>>>
>>>BLS 25.
>>>>
>>>Penchoen, Thomas G. 1973. Tamazight of the Ayt Ndhir. Los Angeles:
>>>>
>>>Undena Publications.
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Everett, Daniel <DEVERETT at bentley.edu>
>>>>
>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>In PirahÃ£, David, the relevant construction is:
>>>>>
>>>hi-ab-Ã¡o-b-Ã¡
>>>>>
>>>it-negative-completive-perfective-remote (out of control of speaker)
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>hi-ab-a (without aspectual morphology) is used for 'no' or 'didn't'
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>The former has the sense of 'to have run out' but is very similar in
>>>>>
>>>many contexts to 'allgone.'
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>-- Dan
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>On Jan 31, 2013, at 6:53 AM, Hewitt, Stephen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>Hello David,
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>In Breton, yes.
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>Aed eo toud
>>>>>>
>>>Gone is3sg all
>>>>>>
>>>"it's all gone"
>>>>>>
>>>With the same meaning as in English. In French you have to use the verb
>>>>>>
>>>"partir" = leave, not "aller" = go.
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>Best,
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>Steve
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>Steve Hewitt
>>>>>>
>>>30 rue Charles Baudelaire
>>>>>>
>>>75012 PARIS
>>>>>>
>>>France
>>>>>>
>>>s.hewitt at unesco.org
>>>>>>
>>>+33/-0 1.45.68.06.08 work
>>>>>>
>>>+33/-0 6.32.13.79.42 mobile
>>>>>>
>>>+33/-0 1.46.28.89.16 home
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>
>>>From: Discussion List for ALT
>>>>>>
>>>[mailto:LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of David Gil
>>>>>>
>>>Sent: 31 January 2013 05:30
>>>>>>
>>>To: LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>>>>>>
>>>Subject: query: grammaticalization go/be.in > negation
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>In English motherese, the expression 'allgone' is often used to express
>>>>>>
>>>a negative concept involving the disappearance or absence of an entity
>>>>>>
>>>previously present.
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>I am interested in ascertaining how common or rare it is,
>>>>>>
>>>cross-linguistically, for a verb of motion (eg. 'go') or location (eg.
>>>>>>
>>>'be in') to undergo extension of meaning, or grammaticalization, to
>>>>>>
>>>express various negative concepts, as in the above 'allgone' example.
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>The reason behind this query is as follows. In Roon (an Austronesian
>>>>>>
>>>language of West Papua), the same verb has a range of meanings which
>>>>>>
>>>includes 'be in' and 'disappear'. (The logic behind this would seem to
>>>>>>
>>>be that if something goes or is located somewhere else, then it is no
>>>>>>
>>>longer here.) In addition, the stem on which this verb is based is
>>>>>>
>>>also used to form negative imperatives. I am currently trying to
>>>>>>
>>>figure out whether to analyze this in terms of macrofunctionality,
>>>>>>
>>>polysemy, or accidental homophony, so whether similar patterns are
>>>>>>
>>>attested cross-linguistically would be of relevance to the choice of
>>>>>>
>>>analysis.
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>Looking forward to any responses,
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>David
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>--
>>>>>>
>>>David Gil
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>Department of Linguistics
>>>>>>
>>>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology Deutscher Platz 6,
>>>>>>
>>>D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550119
>>>>>>
>>>Email: gil at eva.mpg.de
>>>>>>
>>>Webpage: http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Paul J. Hopper,
>>>Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus,
>>>Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences,
>>>Carnegie Mellon University,
>>>Pittsburgh, PA 15213,
>>>Tel. 412-683-1109,
>>>Fax 412-268-7989.
>>>
>>>Adjunct Professor of Linguistics,
>>>Department of Linguistics,
>>>University of Pittsburgh.
>>>
>>>Senior External Fellow,
>>>School of Linguistics and Literature,
>>>Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS),
>>>Freiburg i.Br., Germany
>>>
>>
>>Ian Maddieson
>>
>>
>>Department of Linguistics
>>University of New Mexico
>>MSC03-2130
>>Albuquerque NM 87131-0001
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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