[Lingtyp] Relativization
Martin Haspelmath
haspelmath at shh.mpg.de
Sat Mar 31 18:42:33 UTC 2018
On 26.03.18 17:16, Heath Jeffrey wrote:
>
> As a grammarian I regularly wince at typological codings, even if
> packaged as humble "comparative concepts," and I question the value of
> world-wide typological distributions based on them. By the way, the
> situation is worse with "internally-headed relatives."
>
The question is what goals we are pursuing. Jeffrey Heath has written a
large number of excellent reference grammars, and for these, one does
not need worldwide typological distributions.
Relative clauses can be classified in a wide variety of ways, and it is
not a priori clear which subtypes yield the best insights. But some
comparative concepts, such as "relative pronoun (strategy)", are widely
used, so it is good to have clear definitions. And according to Comrie &
Kuteva's (2005) definition (WALS Chapter 122), the Koyra Chiini Songhay
case qualifies as a relative pronoun, because the relativizer /kaa/ is
directly followed by postpositions (as confirmed by Jeffrey's message).
Typological concepts can thus be rather different from the categories
used in descriptive grammars (such as "[gap]"), but this does not mean
that they do not have "value".
In his 2016 opinion piece on "typology vs. type-ology" in LT
(https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/lity.2016.20.issue-3/lingty-2016-0021/lingty-2016-0021.xml),
Jeffrey Heath recommends "microtypology" instead of Greenbergian
worldwide typology, and he suggests that generative work on
microparametric variation "is pointing the way forward".
There is of course nothing to be said against a detailed study of
Romance or Scandinavian dialect features, but such studies cannot lead
us to conclusions about Human Language -- so I would say that anyone who
is interested in general linguistics (as opposed to the peculiarities of
particular areas, families or historical periods) cannot do without
worldwide typology with its comparative concepts.
One need not be interested in general linguistics, but this should not
be reason to doubt the value of worldwide typology, even if it may not
have direct relevance to the language-particular studies that most
linguists (perhaps even most ALT members) are mostly pursuing.
Best,
Martin
> I'm afraid that the discussion of Koyra Chiini relatives confirms
> my doubts about the value of crosslinguistic coding into a handful of
> values for each feature.
>
>
> Yes, Koyra Chiini has a relative-clause initial morpheme (KCh /kaa/)
> that gaps the coindexed NP ("headNP [Rel...[gap]...") and usually
> attracts postpositions and if so gaps the PP ("headNP
> [Rel-Postp...[gap]..."). However, resumptive PPs are also possible
> ("headN [Rel...[3Sg/3Pl Postp]...]"). Non-3rd person heads (unlike 3rd
> persons) are optionally resumed even in subject position:
> ("you(headNP) [Rel you...]" meaning 'you who...'). The only
> _pre_position, instrumental-comitative /nda/, cannot precede the
> relative morpheme (# headNP [[/nda/ Rel]...]]), instead it remains in
> place with a resumptive pronoun, or it encliticizes to the Rel
> morpheme in the fashion of English /where-to/of/upon/... .
>
>
> The major question is whether the KCh Rel morpheme is a "pronoun" as
> opposed to an invariant 'that/when...'complementizer or a pluralizable
> relative noun. In Koyra Chiini, /kaa/can be either a relative morpheme
> with the limited (pro-)nominal features mentioned above, or a
> 'that/when...' complementizer, and some textual occurrences can be
> read (or at least translated) either way. In other Songhay languages,
> the corresponding morpheme can function as either a 'that/when...'
> complementizer or a nominal relative morpheme. In the latter function,
> it optionally takes the nominal plural suffix, e.g. Koyraboro Senni
> /ka?/with optional indefinite plural /ka?-ya?/. Since a head NP (with
> obligatory number marking) is normally present, the option to
> (redundantly) pluralize the relative morpheme is only occasionally
> implemented, but KS /ka?/ is clearly noun-like rather than
> pronoun-like. As in KCh it can also be an invariant 'that/when'
> complementizer. Songhay languages vary as to whether a coindexed
> clause-internal nonsubject NP is realized as a gap, as a pronoun with
> full person/number marking, or as an invariant "3Sg" pronominal.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf
> of Martin Haspelmath <haspelmath at shh.mpg.de>
> *Sent:* Monday, March 26, 2018 9:56:54 AM
> *To:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] Relativization
> I wouldn't say that the Koyra Chiini form is "arguably" a relative
> pronoun, because it's a question of definition, not of argumentation.
> (People sometimes say that they "disagree" with terminological
> choices, but I think the verbs "adopt" or "reject" are better suited
> when it comes to talking about other people's terminological choices.)
>
> As Matthew noted earlier, in the WALS chapter by Comrie & Kuteva, the
> "relative pronoun strategy" is clearly defined as one involving an
> element that can be flagged for its syntactic role (" a clause-initial
> pronominal element [which] is case-marked (by case or by an
> adposition) to indicate the role of the head noun within the relative
> clause", http://wals.info/chapter/122
> <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwals.info%2Fchapter%2F122&data=02%7C01%7C%7C40c053f747114afaa68e08d593228d9d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636576698970504650&sdata=nfxhM5cq6o8PawPAbTUj8vKScG3tVMZtb0P%2FX3Q8XRM%3D&reserved=0>).
>
> Likewise, in the APiCS chapter by Michaelis et al., "a relative-clause
> marker is regarded as a relative pronoun if it has different subject
> and object forms ..., or if it can be combined with an adposition"
> (http://apics-online.info/parameters/92.chapter.html
> <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapics-online.info%2Fparameters%2F92.chapter.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C40c053f747114afaa68e08d593228d9d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636576698970504650&sdata=dqOqRJlsfFb36jC%2BG%2BhS027m81Ciw1%2FWobvpiLxE0XY%3D&reserved=0>).
>
> Because of these authoritative uses, I would reject (but not argue
> against) a terminological use (in typology) according to which
> relative pronouns are said to include relativizers that vary for
> ("pronominal") features like gender and/or number but do not indicate
> syntactic role. (And if there were an "IPA of morphosyntax", as
> suggested here
> <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdlc.hypotheses.org%2F1000&data=02%7C01%7C%7C40c053f747114afaa68e08d593228d9d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636576698970504650&sdata=vwjM8PkJzdNs05Cq7hi3lI5jMEE9UeKxCn8%2FyAv1U0k%3D&reserved=0>,
> it should have the same meaning as in the WALS and APiCS chapters.)
>
> Thus, from a typological point of view, the relativizers of Koyra
> Chiini and Coast Tsimshian are clearly relative pronouns.
>
> Martin
>
> On 26.03.18 15:27, Dryer, Matthew wrote:
>>
>> In Koyra Chiini (Heath 1999: 192), the relative word is arguably a
>> relative pronoun since it can occur with a postposition.
>>
>> Coast Tsimshian has a construction which could be analysed as
>> involving a relative pronoun in that relative clauses are marked with
>> a word that varies for the grammatical relation of the head in the
>> relative clause, /gu/ if it is the A,/in/ if it is the S or P (Mulder
>> 1994: 142).
>>
>> Heath, Jeffrey. (1999) /A grammar of Koyra Chiini: The Songhay of
>> Timbuktu/. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.
>>
>> Mulder, Jean Gail. (1994) /Ergativity in Coast Tsimshian
>> (Sm'algyax)/. Berkeley: University of California Press.
>>
>> Matthew
>>
>> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> <mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> on behalf of
>> Bernard Comrie <comrie at linguistics.ucsb.edu
>> <mailto:comrie at linguistics.ucsb.edu>>
>> Date: Monday, March 26, 2018 at 3:40 AM
>> To: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>"
>> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Relativization
>>
>> Dear Jeff:
>>
>> Some thoughts on your post.
>>
>> The chapters in WALS are necessarily very brief, so often it will be
>> necessary to look at other literature.
>>
>> As many people have noted, including me back in an early publication
>> on European-type relative clauses (Comrie 1998: 79), the
>> European-type relative clause has recently (e.g. through colonialism)
>> spread through contact to languages outside Europe. These are of
>> course not independent instances of the development of this kind of
>> relative clause.
>>
>> I went into somewhat more detail on possible independent candidates
>> for European-type relative clauses in Comrie (2006). If you compare
>> this article with WALS, please note that the publication details are
>> misleading; some points discussed in the 2006 article that came up
>> during preparatory work on WALS did not find their way into the final
>> version of WALS.
>>
>> Regarding your specific question on Acoma: I'll need to check, as I
>> don't have the relevant data immediately to hand.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Bernard
>>
>> References
>>
>> Comrie, B. 1998. Rethinking the typology of relative clauses.
>> /Language Design/ 1: 59-86.
>>
>> Comrie, B. 2006. Syntactic typology: just how exotic ARE
>> European-type relative clauses? In Ricardo Mairal and Juana Gil
>> (eds.): /Linguistic Universals/, 130-154. Cambridge: Cambridge
>> University Press.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2018/3/18 17:26, Jeff Siegel wrote:
>>>
>>> Greetings:
>>>
>>> In the description of relativization in WALS (features 122A and
>>> 123A), the relative pronoun strategy is shown to stand out "as being
>>> typically European since it is not found in Indo-European languages
>>> spoken outside Europe, and is exceptional more generally outside
>>> Europe" (Comrie & Kuteva 2013). This strategy is defined as follows:
>>>
>>> "[T]he position relativized is indicated inside the relative clause
>>> by means of a clause-initial pronominal element, and this pronominal
>>> element is case-marked (by case or by an adposition) to indicate the
>>> role of the head noun within the relative clause." (Comrie & Kuteva
>>> 2013)
>>>
>>> The only language outside the European area shown to use this
>>> strategy is Acoma, Keresan language of New Mexico.
>>>
>>> Could anyone lead me to examples of the relative pronoun strategy
>>> used in other languages outside Europe? Also, could anyone provide
>>> such examples from Acoma or related languages? (I can't seem to find
>>> any in the descriptions of Keresan languages that I have examined.)
>>>
>>> Reference:
>>>
>>> Bernard Comrie, Tania Kuteva. 2013. Relativization on Subjects. In:
>>> Dryer, Matthew S. & Haspelmath, Martin (eds.). /The World Atlas of
>>> Language Structures Online./ Leipzig: Max Planck Institute for
>>> Evolutionary Anthropology.
>>> (Available online at http://wals.info/chapter/122
>>> <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwals.info%2Fchapter%2F122&data=02%7C01%7C%7C40c053f747114afaa68e08d593228d9d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636576698970504650&sdata=nfxhM5cq6o8PawPAbTUj8vKScG3tVMZtb0P%2FX3Q8XRM%3D&reserved=0>,
>>> Accessed on 2018-03-19.)
>>>
>>> Many thanks,
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> Emeritus Professor Jeff Siegel
>>>
>>> Linguistics, School of Humanities, Arts and Social Sciences
>>>
>>> University of New England
>>>
>>> Armidale, NSW 2351
>>>
>>> Australia
>>>
>>> https://www.une.edu.au/staff-profiles/bcss/jsiegel
>>> <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.une.edu.au%2Fstaff-profiles%2Fbcss%2Fjsiegel&data=02%7C01%7C%7C40c053f747114afaa68e08d593228d9d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636576698970504650&sdata=OEEA1Yuv4vq4QYkJWLKU1RXkccY0L7XZ40dYMV98oiw%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistserv.linguistlist.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flingtyp&data=02%7C01%7C%7C40c053f747114afaa68e08d593228d9d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636576698970660902&sdata=cgkU4IZGQyYlAHqIh3QLSIf%2Fkb68faNKZGfC8KJ5ITg%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Bernard Comrie
>> Distinguished Faculty Professor of Linguistics, University of California Santa Barbara
>>
>> E-mail: comrie at linguistics.ucsb.edu
>> Web site:http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/bernard-comrie <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linguistics.ucsb.edu%2Fpeople%2Fbernard-comrie&data=02%7C01%7C%7C40c053f747114afaa68e08d593228d9d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636576698970660902&sdata=7jNAFRlryIH3yyCNxixs%2FSmEBGUA1VYq1sCtuzpuA2o%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> Department of Linguistics
>> University of California, Santa Barbara
>> Santa Barbara, CA 93106-3100
>> USA
>>
>>
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>
> --
> Martin Haspelmath (haspelmath at shh.mpg.de <mailto:haspelmath at shh.mpg.de>)
> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
> Kahlaische Strasse 10
> D-07745 Jena
> &
> Leipzig University
> IPF 141199
> Nikolaistrasse 6-10
> D-04109 Leipzig
>
>
>
>
>
--
Martin Haspelmath (haspelmath at shh.mpg.de)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
IPF 141199
Nikolaistrasse 6-10
D-04109 Leipzig
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