[Lingtyp] "I hide my stone in my house"

Thu Oct 11 16:04:16 UTC 2018

Note, however, that for *hiding* things Russian actually uses the
locative:
Я положил папку в *ящик* (I put the.file in the.drawer) vs Я спрятал
папку в *ящике* (I hid the.file in the.drawer).
Moreover, some verbs seem to have changed their behaviour in the last
100 years or so and became more locative. E.g., in the 19th c. it was ok
to *lock* someone in a room-ACC (запереть в комнату), but today
everybody would use room-LOC (запереть в комнате).

On Thu, Oct 11, 2018, at 6:36 AM, Mike Morgan wrote:
> Russian also "follows" the "Finnish way" of doing things:
> locative (prepositional) case for static: is located in a place
> accusative case for dynamic: put something in a place
> 
> Sanskrit also
> 
> I am guessing that the languages of this type are not, in face few as
> Ian suggests.> 
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 6:42 PM Bakker, Dik <D.Bakker at uva.nl> wrote:
>> I think that one should not ignore
>> the semantics of the verb ('hide').
>> 
>> Sebastian's English example (trans vs intrans) makes
>> this very clear.
>> 
>> So, it seems not to be a clear-cut case where
>> a simple translation would render the answer
>> with respect to possible case/adposition differences.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Dik
>> 
>> 
>> dr. Dik Bakker 
>> 
>> Dept. of General Linguistics Universities of Amsterdam & Lancaster
>> tel (+31) 35 544 75 78
>>
>> http://www.uva.nl/profiel/b/a/d.bakker/d.bakker.html
>>
>>  Societas Linguistica Europaea Secretary
>>  http://www.societaslinguistica.eu/
>>  http://www.linguisticsociety.eu/[1]>> 
>> *Van:* Lingtyp [lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org] namens
>> Hannu Tommola [hannu.tommola at uta.fi] *Verzonden:* donderdag 11
>> oktober 2018 14:48 *Aan:* Hartmut Haberland *CC:*
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org *Onderwerp:* Re: [Lingtyp] "I hide
>> my stone in my house">> 
>> For a Finnish speaker this is the only plausible solution..;-) ,
>> besides, it seems still to be possible to use the German _verstecken_
>> in this way, too. See Duden Wörterbuch: Sie versteckte das Geld in
>> ihrem Schreibtisch / (selten:) in ihren Schreibtisch.>> 
>>  Best,
>>  Hannu
>> 
>>  Quoting Hartmut Haberland <hartmut at ruc.dk>:

>>> I am a German speaker and immediately I find the Finnish solution
>>> very plausible.  After all, in German we also have>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>> Der Stein liegt in der Schale. (Dative)

>>>  

>>> Ich legte den Stein in die Schale.  (Accusative)

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>> So German is actually Finnish-type, too, in part at least. The
>>> problem seems to be with German ‘verstecken,’ that is not seen as a
>>> movement verb.>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>> Cf.

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>> Ich verstecke den Stein hinter dem (not: hinter das) Haus.

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>> There are other German verbs like that, e.g. anbringen, ablegen,
>>> abstellen, parken, archivieren, speichern, … that work the same.>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>> Same with Danish *gemme* ‘verstecken, aufheben’:

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>> Jeg gemmer maden (inde) i spisekammeret.

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>> Now *inde* is not obligatory, actually a bit awkward, but possible.
>>> But it indicates place (where?), not direction (whither?), and the
>>> corresponding directional adverb (*ind*) would be impossible here.>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>> With verbs like *legen, stellen, setzen, sich setzen* German is like
>>> Finnish.  But they seem to be in the minority.>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>> Never thought of it –

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>> Wir parkten das Auto im Hof (We parked the car in the backyard), not>>>  

>>> *Wir parkten das Auto in den Hof (*into the backyard)

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>> Besides

>>>  

>>> Wir stellten das Auto im Hof ab (roughly same meaning, but more like
>>> ‚because it was in the way’)>>>  

>>> I would marginally accept

>>>  

>>> Wir stellten das Auto in den Hof ab

>>>  

>>> though.

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>> *Hartmut Haberland*
>>> Professor emeritus

>>>  

>>> RUC
>>> 
>>> *Roskilde University*
>>> Department of Communication and Arts

>>>  

>>> Universitetsvej 1 DK-4000 Roskilde Telephone: +45 46742841>>>   

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>> *Fra:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> *På vegne
>>> af* Joo Ian *Sendt:* 11. oktober 2018 13:01 *Til:*
>>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org *Emne:* [Lingtyp] "I hide my stone
>>> in my house">>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>> Dear all,

>>>  

>>> I am interested in the following hypothesis:

>>>  

>>> In most of the world's languages, the PP "in my house" in sentence
>>> (1) and (2) are the same.>>>  

>>> (1) My stone is in my house.

>>>  

>>> (2) I hide my stone in my house.

>>>  

>>> For example, in German:

>>>  

>>> (1) Mein Stein ist "in meinem Haus".

>>>  

>>> (2) Ich verstecke meinen Stein "in meinem Haus".

>>>  

>>> Although there are few languages where the PP of (1) and (2) are not
>>> identical, such as Finnish:>>>  

>>> (1) Kiveni on "talossani". (Locative)

>>>  

>>> (2) Piilotan kiveni "talooni". (Illative)

>>>  

>>> But cases like Finnish are far fewer than English-like cases, I
>>> think.>>>  

>>> I think this is interesting because the PP of (1) and that of (2)
>>> are semantically different: the PP in (1) is a location whereas that
>>> in PP is the endpoint of a placement event. If I can show that the
>>> two PPs are morphologically identical in most of the world's
>>> languages, then I can suggest that placement event profiles a static
>>> location as its endpoint and not a dynamic goal, like Rohde has
>>> argued in her dissertation
>>> (https://scholarship.rice.edu/handle/1911/18015)>>>  

>>> Although I find this issue interesting, I would like to know if
>>> others find it so as well. What do you think? (Also, I would
>>> appreciate if anyone can let me know any other Finnish-like cases)>>>  

>>> From Hong Kong,

>>>  

>>> Ian Joo

>>>  

>>> http://ianjoo.academia.edu

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>>>  

>> 

>> Hannu Tommola
>>  Professor emer. of Russian Language (Translation Theory and
>>  Practice)>>  School of Language, Translation and Literary Studies
>>  FIN-33014 University of Tampere, Finland
>> _______________________________________________
>>  Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dr Michael W Morgan
> mwm || *U*C> || mike || माईक || માઈક || মাঈক || மாஈக ||  مایک ||мика
> || 戊流岸マイク> sign language linguist / linguistic typologist / Deaf education
> consultant> "Have language, will travel"
> =====================================
> "People who are always looking down at the bottom line will always
> fail to see the stars"> _________________________________________________
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