[Lingtyp] "I hide my stone in my house"
MM Jocelyne Fernandez
mmjocelynefern at gmail.com
Thu Oct 11 21:02:31 UTC 2018
Dear all,
The interesting point about it is that it is more a question of deeper
meaning - what is the starting point vs. the endpoint of the action, or
its potential result - rather than a "motion" as such.
For those interested to read about other Finno-Ugric languages than the
ones usually mentioned on internet, one can also take some examples from
the nearest relatives of Finnic languages in the Fenno-Scandic area:
Samic languages.
Generally speaking, Northern Sami appears to be much more “_localizing”_
than English – a feature that is further accentuated by the fact that
many verbs that take a direct or indirect object in most European
languages govern a complement already orientated towards one of the two
main directions:
1/ with the _directive_ (formerly “illative”), verbs of emotion such as
*j**áhkkit*‘to believe (in)’; *liikot* ‘to like’; *suhttat* ‘to be angry
with’
/Ale suhta munnje!/
‘Don’t be angry with me!’
Also with verbs such as *gullat* ‘to belong to’; *guoskat* ‘to concern’;
*heivet* ‘to suit’,
and verbs meaning ‘to leave, to abandon, to stay’
/Diet á//šš//i ii guskka _munnje_/
‘That thing doesn’t concern me [is none of my concerns’]
/Dat ii heive _buohkaide_/
‘It doesn’t suit all (people)’
/Áddjá bázii _duoddarii_///
‘Grandfather stayed in the mountain’;
2/ with the _locative/separative_ (formerly “inessive/elative”), verbs
of emotion such as *ballat* ‘to fear, to be afraid of’;
*bero**š**tit*‘to be interested in’; *fuollat* ‘to worry about’;
*váruhit* ‘to be careful of, to be wary of’:
/Várut _beatnagis_! /
‘Beware of the dog!’
(Examples from M.M.Jocelyne Fernandez-Vest, 2011, /SAMI. //An
introduction to the language and culture/, /with a Sami-English-Sami
lexicon (2. Grammar/, p. 33-99/)/, Helsinki, Finn Lectura.)**
Summing up, Northern Sami, compared with Finnish, is both
• /morphologically/ less localizing than Finnish: in modern Northern
Sami, the number of local cases has been reduced to 2: the directive
(“illative”) and the locative (/separative) formed from the merger of
the locative and separative (respectively referred to as “inessive” and
“elative” in Finno-Ugric grammars) (NB. besides, no subclass of
“internal vs. external” cases as in Finnish)
• /semantically/ often more localizing : in Finnish, *pel**ätä*‘to
fear’, *varoa* ‘be careful of’ (see 2/ above) require a partitive, i.e.
one of the object-cases (NB. originally a separative case).
And the direction of the action can be opposite: *tykätä* and *pitää*
‘to like’ require an elative:
/En tykkää rockmusiiki_sta (elative)
_/
‘I don’t like rockmusic.’
While the reasons for these construction patterns are an important
subject of discussion for semanticians and cognitivists, non native
speakers understand generally that they'd be well advised to learn the
construction rules by heart, since the system is not much more logical
than in other languages with a poorer morphology.
Look for instance at some examples collected for French-speaking students:
• La direction n’est pas toujours exprimée en français par un
circonstant : c’est le _verbe_ qui fait la différence,
*– Hänel_tä_ *(élatif)*kuoli poika sodan aikana*
‘De-lui est mort un fils pendant la guerre’ càd. ‘Il a _perdu_ un fils…’.
*– Kenel_tä_ *(élatif)*lainasit tämän uimapuvun ?*
‘A qui as-tu _emprunté_ ce maillot de bain ?’
–*Kene_lle_ *(illatif)*lainasit uimapukusi ?*
‘A qui as-tu _prêté_ ton maillot de bain?’.
• sans compter qu’elle n’est pas forcément la même dans les deux
langues : ex. *kysyä* + ablatif ‘demander /à’/.
*– Kysy naapuri_lta_, ellet usko minua !*
‘Demande au voisin, si tu ne me crois pas !’.
(Examples from M.M.Jocelyne Fernandez-Vest, 2018, /Parlons finnois – La
Finlande, langues et cultures,/ ///(2. Grammaire finnoise/, p.
57-203/)/, Paris, Ed. L’Harmattan, coll. Parlons/)/
**
**Prof. M.M.Jocelyne FERNANDEZ-VEST
CNRS & Université Sorbonne Nouvelle
----------------------------------------
Le 11/10/2018 à 19:41, Östen Dahl a écrit :
>
> The crucial property of Finnish is not so much that it distinguishes
> by case the place at which something is located from the place to
> which something moves as that it uses the “endpoint of motion” cases
> also with some verbs where there is no motion involved, such as
> ‘remain’ and ‘stay’, as was noted by Florian Siegl. There is a
> somewhat analogous use of ‘from’-cases with verbs meaning ‘find’,
> ‘look for’, as in /Hän etsii avainta taskusta /‘He is looking for the
> key in his pocket’ (lit. ‘from the pocket’) . (‘Hide’ is different as
> it may or may not involve motion.)
>
> I have an old paper on this, see below.
>
> * Östen
>
> D
>
> Dah Dahl, Östen. 1987. Case Grammar and Prototypes. In René Dirven &
> Gunter Radden (eds.), /Concepts of Case/, 147–161. Tübingen: Narr.
>
> *Från:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> *För
> *Sergey Say
> *Skickat:* den 11 oktober 2018 18:52
> *Till:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> *Ämne:* Re: [Lingtyp] "I hide my stone in my house"
>
> Dear all,
>
> A close colleague of mine, Natalia Zaika, wrote a paper on exactly
> this kind of alternation "in Lithuanian and elsewhere", see
> https://www.academia.edu/21511423/The_directive_locative_alternation_in_Lithuanian_and_elsewhere_2016_
>
> There are many references to previous studies, too.
>
> Best,
>
> Sergey Say
>
> On Thursday, October 11, 2018, 7:37:28 PM GMT+3, Peter Arkadiev
> <peterarkadiev at yandex.ru <mailto:peterarkadiev at yandex.ru>> wrote:
>
> Re Russian and the lative/essive expressions with verbs of
> displacement in general I suggest looking into the following paper:
>
> Nikitina, Tatiana. Variation in the encoding of endpoint of motion in
> Russian. In: V. Hasko, R. Perelmutter (eds.), /New Approaches to
> Slavic Verbs of Motion/. Amsterdam, Philadelphia: John Benjamins,
> 2010, pp. 267–290.
> https://www.academia.edu/2916470/Variation_in_the_encoding_of_endpoints_of_motion_in_Russian
>
> Best regards,
>
> Peter
>
> --
>
> Peter Arkadiev, PhD
>
> Institute of Slavic Studies
>
> Russian Academy of Sciences
>
> Leninsky prospekt 32-A 119991 Moscow
>
> peterarkadiev at yandex.ru <mailto:peterarkadiev at yandex.ru>
>
> http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev
>
> 11.10.2018, 16:39, "Mike Morgan" <mwmbombay at gmail.com
> <mailto:mwmbombay at gmail.com>>:
>
> Russian also "follows" the "Finnish way" of doing things:
>
> locative (prepositional) case for static: is located in a place
>
> accusative case for dynamic: put something in a place
>
> Sanskrit also
>
> I am guessing that the languages of this type are not, in face few
> as Ian suggests.
>
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 6:42 PM Bakker, Dik <D.Bakker at uva.nl
> <mailto:D.Bakker at uva.nl>> wrote:
>
> I think that one should not ignore
>
> the semantics of the verb ('hide').
>
> Sebastian's English example (trans vs intrans) makes
>
> this very clear.
>
> So, it seems not to be a clear-cut case where
>
> a simple translation would render the answer
>
> with respect to possible case/adposition differences.
>
> Best,
>
> Dik
>
> dr. Dik Bakker
>
> Dept. of General Linguistics
> Universities of Amsterdam & Lancaster
> tel (+31) 35 544 75 78
>
> http://www.uva.nl/profiel/b/a/d.bakker/d.bakker.html
>
> Societas Linguistica Europaea
> Secretary
> http://www.societaslinguistica.eu/
> http://www.linguisticsociety.eu/
> <http://www.societaslinguistica.eu/>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *Van:*Lingtyp [lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>] namens
> Hannu Tommola [hannu.tommola at uta.fi <mailto:hannu.tommola at uta.fi>]
> *Verzonden:* donderdag 11 oktober 2018 14:48
> *Aan:* Hartmut Haberland
> *CC:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Onderwerp:* Re: [Lingtyp] "I hide my stone in my house"
>
> For a Finnish speaker this is the only plausible solution..;-)
> , besides, it seems still to be possible to use the German
> _verstecken_ in this way, too. See Duden Wörterbuch: Sie
> versteckte das Geld in ihrem Schreibtisch / (selten:) in ihren
> Schreibtisch.
>
> Best,
> Hannu
>
> Quoting Hartmut Haberland <hartmut at ruc.dk
> <mailto:hartmut at ruc.dk>>:
>
> I am a German speaker and immediately I find the Finnish
> solution very plausible.After all, in German we also have
>
> Der Stein liegt in der Schale. (Dative)
>
> Ich legte den Stein in die Schale.(Accusative)
>
> So German is actually Finnish-type, too, in part at least.
> The problem seems to be with German ‘verstecken,’ that is
> not seen as a movement verb.
>
> Cf.
>
> Ich verstecke den Stein hinter dem (not: hinter das) Haus.
>
> There are other German verbs like that, e.g. anbringen,
> ablegen, abstellen, parken, archivieren, speichern, … that
> work the same.
>
> Same with Danish /gemme/ ‘verstecken, aufheben’:
>
> Jeg gemmer maden (inde) i spisekammeret.
>
> Now /inde/ is not obligatory, actually a bit awkward, but
> possible. But it indicates place (where?), not direction
> (whither?), and the corresponding directional adverb
> (/ind/) would be impossible here.
>
> With verbs like /legen, stellen, setzen, sich setzen/
> German is like Finnish.But they seem to be in the minority.
>
> Never thought of it –
>
> Wir parkten das Auto im Hof (We parked the car in the
> backyard), not
>
> *Wir parkten das Auto in den Hof (*into the backyard)
>
> Besides
>
> Wir stellten das Auto im Hof ab (roughly same meaning, but
> more like ‚because it was in the way’)
>
> I would marginally accept
>
> Wir stellten das Auto in den Hof ab
>
> though.
>
> *Hartmut Haberland*
> Professor emeritus
>
> RUC
>
> *Roskilde University*
> Department of Communication and Arts
>
> Universitetsvej 1
> DK-4000 Roskilde
> Telephone: +45 46742841
>
> *Fra:*Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> *På
> vegne af* Joo Ian
> *Sendt:* 11. oktober 2018 13:01
> *Til:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Emne:* [Lingtyp] "I hide my stone in my house"
>
> Dear all,
>
> I am interested in the following hypothesis:
>
> In most of the world's languages, the PP "in my house" in
> sentence (1) and (2) are the same.
>
> (1) My stone is in my house.
>
> (2) I hide my stone in my house.
>
> For example, in German:
>
> (1) Mein Stein ist "in meinem Haus".
>
> (2) Ich verstecke meinen Stein "in meinem Haus".
>
> Although there are few languages where the PP of (1) and
> (2) are not identical, such as Finnish:
>
> (1) Kiveni on "talossani". (Locative)
>
> (2) Piilotan kiveni "talooni". (Illative)
>
> But cases like Finnish are far fewer than English-like
> cases, I think.
>
> I think this is interesting because the PP of (1) and that
> of (2) are semantically different: the PP in (1) is a
> location whereas that in PP is the endpoint of a placement
> event. If I can show that the two PPs are morphologically
> identical in most of the world's languages, then I can
> suggest that placement event profiles a static location as
> its endpoint and not a dynamic goal, like Rohde has argued
> in her dissertation
> (https://scholarship.rice.edu/handle/1911/18015)
>
> Although I find this issue interesting, I would like to
> know if others find it so as well. What do you think?
> (Also, I would appreciate if anyone can let me know any
> other Finnish-like cases)
>
> From Hong Kong,
>
> Ian Joo
>
> http://ianjoo.academia.edu <http://ianjoo.academia.edu/>
>
>
> Hannu Tommola
> Professor emer. of Russian Language (Translation Theory and
> Practice)
> School of Language, Translation and Literary Studies
> FIN-33014 University of Tampere, Finland
>
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> --
>
> Dr Michael W Morgan
> mwm || *U*C> || mike || माईक|| માઈક|| মাঈক|| மாஈக|| مایک ||мика
> || 戊流岸マイク
> sign language linguist / linguistic typologist / Deaf education
> consultant
> "Have language, will travel"
> =====================================
> "People who are always looking down at the bottom line will always
> fail to see the stars"
>
> ,
>
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