[Lingtyp] Query: syllable-reversing ludlings

[Hiroto Uchihara]

Dear David,

According to the Ito et al. (1996), fu.men 'score' > men.fu, mo.dan
'modern' > dan.mo, ya.súi 'cheap' > sui.ya; here, we could say that the
syllables are reversed or the same 123 > 231 reversing is being applied.
With longer words, they report ba.tsu.gun 'fantastic' > gun.ba.tsu,
ki.chí.gai 'crazy' > gai.ki.chi, koo.híi 'coffee' > hii.koo so maybe 123..X
> (X-1)(X)123.. with moraic counting is more general.  They also report
cases of 123 > 321 (with moraic counting), such as pán.tsu ~ pan.tsu
'pants' > tsun.pa, tái.pu 'type' > pui.ta.

Hiroto

El dom., 17 de may. de 2020 a la(s) 11:59, David Gil (gil at shh.mpg.de)
escribió:

> Dear Hiroto,
>
> Thanks, this is very helpful. I'm curious about one thing though.  In the
> examples that you cited, the mora happens to correspond to a syllable, so
> it is not possible to tell whether it is moras or syllables that are being
> reversed.  But there are lots of other words where the mora is less than a
> complete syllable — what happens in such words?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> David
>
>
> On 17/05/2020 19:35, Hiroto Uchihara wrote:
>
> Dear David,
>
> Japanese Zuu-jaa go does this, although I don't use this ludling so I
> don't have an intuition (I believe it became obsolete in the 90's). It
> looks like tri-moraic words follow the pattern 123 > 231 (Ito, Kitagawa &
> Mester 1996), such as pi.a.no 'piano' > ya.no.pi, shi.ka.ke 'trick' >
> ka.ke.shi, ma.zú.i 'tastes bad' > zu.i.ma, ku.su.ri 'drug' > su.ri.ku. It
> appears that the location of the pitch accent doesn't matter: 'tastes bad'
> have accent on the penultimate mora while others are unaccented.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Reference:
> Ito, Junko, Yoshihisa Kitagawa & Armin Mester. 1996. Prosodic faithfulness
> and correspondence: evidence from Japanese argot. Journal of East Asian
> Linguistics 5.3: 217-294.
>
> Hiroto
>
> El dom., 17 de may. de 2020 a la(s) 11:03, David Gil (gil at shh.mpg.de)
> escribió:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>>
>>
>> Ludlings (aka play languages or secret languages) are often constructed
>> by reversing the order of syllables in a word.  Using numerals to denote
>> syllables, 12 > 21.  But what happens when there are three (or more)
>> syllables in the word?  For tri-syllabic words, the two most common
>> outcomes are
>>
>>
>>
>> (a) 123 > 312
>>
>> (b) 123 > 231
>>
>>
>>
>> The Riau Indonesian ludling I have written about has the (a) pattern, eg. *bahasa
>> > sabaha*. But a friend of mine in Papua has recently started writing to
>> me in a ludling using the (b) pattern, e.g. *bahasa > hasaba*.  Which
>> got me curious.  According to Wikipedia, the French ludling *verlan* may
>> use either option, e.g. *cigarette* > *restiga* or *garetsi*.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would appreciate any information you might be able to provide with
>> regard to syllable-reversing ludlings of this kind that you might be
>> familiar with in other languages.  Specifically, I would like to know:
>>
>>
>>
>> (1) which pattern is followed in tri-syllabic words: (a), (b), or perhaps
>> other?
>>
>> (2) what is the location of word-stress in the language?
>>
>>
>>
>> The motivation behind the second question is that I have a hunch that the
>> difference between the ludlings in closely related Riau Indonesian and
>> Papuan Malay might be due to their different stress patterns — a hypothesis
>> that is easily tested by looking at a handful of other languages.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> David
>>
>> --
>> David Gil
>>
>> Senior Scientist (Associate)
>> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
>> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
>> Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
>>
>> Email: gil at shh.mpg.de
>> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
>> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
>>
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>
>
> --
> Dr. Hiroto Uchihara
> https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0
> Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas
> Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas
> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
> Circuito Mario de la Cueva
> Ciudad Universitaria, 04510, Ciudad de México.
> Tel. Seminario:(+52)-(55)-5622-7489
> Office: (+52)-(55)-5622-7250, Ext. 49223
>
> --
> David Gil
>
> Senior Scientist (Associate)
> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
> Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
>
> Email: gil at shh.mpg.de
> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
>
>

-- 
Dr. Hiroto Uchihara
https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0
Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas
Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Circuito Mario de la Cueva
Ciudad Universitaria, 04510, Ciudad de México.
Tel. Seminario:(+52)-(55)-5622-7489
Office: (+52)-(55)-5622-7250, Ext. 49223
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