[Lingtyp] Testing a generalization about spatial reference frames

Fri Mar 5 11:57:01 UTC 2021

… and of course the 山陽 (sanyō) and 山陰 (san’in) areas (and railway lines) in Japan … on the sunny (Southern) and shady (Northern) side of the mountains, resp. Hartmut

Fra: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> På vegne af Randy J. LaPolla
Sendt: 5. marts 2021 12:32
Til: Bernhard Wälchli <bernhard at ling.su.se>
Cc: LINGTYP <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Emne: Re: [Lingtyp] Testing a generalization about spatial reference frames

Hi All,
In Old Chinese, zuǒ 左 ‘left’ and yòu 右 ‘right’ were used for ‘east’ and ‘west’ respectively, e.g. Yangzhou was called Huái zuǒ míng dū 淮左名都 ‘famous city east of the Huai river'. The Chinese had a strong orientation to the sun, and this is reflected in how they talked about things and named things. Aside from left and right, which are based on facing south/the sun, place names were often given with respect to the sun in an interesting way, e.g. the word 陽（阳）yang (as in yin/yang ☯️) was used to refer to both the south of a mountain and the north of a river, e.g. the parts of each that got the most sun, e.g. 衡陽 Hengyang, a town on the south side of Heng Mountain in Hunan, and 洛陽 Luoyang, a town on the north side of the Luo river in Henan. (Btw, other names used cardinal directions, such as Hunan ’south of the Lake’ and Henan ’south of the river’)

Randy
-----
Randy J. LaPolla, PhD FAHA （羅仁地）
Professor of Linguistics, with courtesy appointment in Chinese, School of Humanities
Nanyang Technological University
HSS-03-45, 48 Nanyang Avenue | Singapore 639818
http://randylapolla.info/
(personal.ntu.edu.sg/randylapolla<http://personal.ntu.edu.sg/randylapolla>)
Most recent books:
The Sino-Tibetan Languages, 2nd Edition (2017)
https://www.routledge.com/The-Sino-Tibetan-Languages-2nd-Edition/LaPolla-Thurgood/p/book/9781138783324
Sino-Tibetan Linguistics (2018)
https://www.routledge.com/Sino-Tibetan-Linguistics/LaPolla/p/book/9780415577397

On 5 Mar 2021, at 5:18 PM, Bernhard Wälchli <bernhard at ling.su.se<mailto:bernhard at ling.su.se>> wrote:

Dear Jürgen and Dmitry,
In some languages it is quite common to speak of “left-side” and “right-side” of rivers, which is an interesting in-between case between relative and absolute frames of reference. In fact, despite ‘left’ and ‘right’, the frame is rather absolute with rivers, whose orientation remains constant. For (Austrian) German, see for instance “Die Donau linksufrig zwischen Stromkilometer 1899,7 und 1901,9 und die „Orther Kehre“ mit Jahreskarte!” (https://www.bundesforste-fischerei.at/d/1017-donau-orth). So, as soon as you have an impressive dominant river, you can build your absolute reference system nicely with left and right.
In Livonian, the name for Courland (Latvian Kurzeme) is kura:-mo:; mo: is ‘land’ and kura: is 'left'. The etymology of the word for Couronians is a matter of debate (as is the etymology of the Livonian word for ‘left’, which perhaps is a Baltic loan), but at least in terms of Livonian folk-etymology it is the land on the left side of the river (unclear whether the river meant is Daugava or Lielupe, both of them are quite impressive).
In a similar sense, cardinal directions are often quite relative. In German, the Baltic Sea is Ostsee "Eastern Sea", but in Estonian it is Lääne-meri "West[GEN]-sea" (I have never managed to understand why it is Itämeri "East Sea" in Finnish).
Best wishes,
Bernhard

________________________________
From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> on behalf of Dmitry Nikolaev <dsnikolaev at gmail.com<mailto:dsnikolaev at gmail.com>>
Sent: Friday, March 5, 2021 9:36:07 AM
To: LINGTYP
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Testing a generalization about spatial reference frames

Dear Juergen,

I don't know what level of conventionalisation you are looking for, but speakers of Russian, at least those who grew up in large cities, tend in general to avoid using geocentric terms and feel uncomfortable using them, and if it is at all possible to say "The lake is to the right of the hill", I would personally do so. A quick googling showed that this phraseology is quite frequent in route descriptions, and this YouTube video literally advertises a plot of land "to the left of lake Veselovka".

My best,
Dmitry

On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 at 07:26, Bohnemeyer, Juergen <jb77 at buffalo.edu<mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>> wrote:
Dear all — I’d like to solicit your help with a generalization. I’m wondering whether anybody is aware of a counterexample:

It is well known that there are communities whose members regularly use geocentric terms in reference to the speaker’s own body, as in

(1) ‘My western/downhill arm hurts’.

E.g., Laughren (1978) mentions this phenomenon in reference to Warlpiri. Levinson (2003: 4) notes that the practice exists among speakers of Guugu Yimithirr (Pama-Nyungan, Queensland). Haun & Rapold (2011) present an experimental study of the practice with speakers of ≠Akhoe Hai||om (Khoekhoe, Namibia).

Now, I’m interested in what you might consider something of an inverse of this kind of use: the use of relative frames at the geographic scale, as in

(2) ‘The lake is to the right of the hill’

My generalization is that there doesn’t seem to be any community in which the type of use exemplified by (2) is conventional.

That is to say, of course we can easily imagine situations in which English speakers might exchange something like (2):

* A speaker looking at the lake and hill might use (2) to describe what she sees to an interlocutor who doesn’t have visual access to the scene. The speaker might use relative language in this case in order to produce a vivid image of the scene as it presents itself to her.

* A speaker looking at representations of the hill and lake on a map might use (2) metonymically.

However, I’m unaware of a community in which something like (2) would be a conventional way of locating landscape entities with respect to one another in the absence of visual access to (representations of) them.

(One could argue that (2) is pragmatically semi-infelicitous in such a context since the truth of (2) depends on the location of the observer, which is usually more variable than that of the hill and lake. However, even though the truth of (1) similarly changes with the speaker’s orientation, it is presumed to be an entrenched strategy for this context in several cultures. My interest is partly in this asymmetry.)

I’m curious whether people are aware of counterexamples.

Thanks! — Juergen

Haun, D. M. B. & C. J. Rapold. (2011). Variation in memory for body movements across cultures. Current Biology 19(23): R1068-1069.

Laughren,M. (1978). Directional terminology in Warlpiri. in Th. Le and M. McCausland (eds.), Working papers in language and linguistics, 8: 1–16. Launceston: Tasmanian College of Advanced Education.

Levinson, S. C. (2003). Space in language and cognition. Cambridge: CUP.

--
Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
Professor, Department of Linguistics
University at Buffalo

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Office hours will be held by Zoom. Email me to schedule a call at any time. I will in addition hold Tu/Th 4-5pm open specifically for remote office hours.

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