[Lingtyp] Non-compositional words for “rock-paper-scissors"
David Gil
gil at shh.mpg.de
Mon May 2 17:34:10 UTC 2022
Daniel,
There actually are plenty of variants of the game (my favourite can be
viewed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PUEoDYpUyQ). But not
knowing enough German or Thai to understand the original examples in
Ian's query, I was (and remain) puzzled over what exactly he is looking
for, as none of this seems to have any connection with
compositionality. My current best guess is that what he is after is
variants of the game in which the hand-shapes are referred to by
dedicated terms as opposed to terms with other meanings (such as 'rock,
'paper', etc.) Perhaps 'dedicated' vs.'metonymical' might capture the
distinction more appropriately.
David
On 02/05/2022 20:07, Daniel Ross wrote:
> There might be a better term, but clearly "rock-paper-scissors" is
> more literal than "ro-sham-bo". The meaning is somewhat idiomatic
> regardless (I think what you're asking about, David), but children
> sometimes make up variants with additional or different hand shapes,
> and so this can be somewhat productive and compositional (within the
> idiomatic context as a name for a game). If you asked a child to play
> a variant called "rock-paper-scissors-spaceship" they'd only ask you
> what the hand shape is for spaceship and how it interacts with the
> other shapes (of course these casual variants can make the game
> hopelessly unbalanced, if for example spaceships destroys everything
> else!), but that seems like compositionality to me (again, within the
> context of a name of the game, listing the shapes).
>
> On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 9:58 AM Nigel Vincent
> <nigel.vincent at manchester.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Dear David,
> I'm glad you raised this. Exactly the same concern had occurred to me.
> Best
> Nigel
>
>
> Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA MAE
> Professor Emeritus of General & Romance Linguistics
> The University of Manchester
>
> Linguistics & English Language
> School of Arts, Languages and Cultures
> The University of Manchester
>
>
>
> https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/en/researchers/nigel-vincent(f973a991-8ece-453e-abc5-3ca198c869dc).html
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on
> behalf of David Gil <gil at shh.mpg.de>
> *Sent:* 02 May 2022 6:44 PM
> *To:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] Non-compositional words for
> “rock-paper-scissors"
>
> Dear all,
>
> I am puzzled by the ongoing use of the term "compositionality" in
> this thread. Compositionality is when two (or more) meaningful
> expressions are brought together, and the meaning of the resulting
> construction is derived from the meanings of the constituent
> parts. I don't see how this applies here (or am I missing something?)
>
> David
>
> On 02/05/2022 19:34, Tim Bodt wrote:
>> Hi Ian,
>>
>> While in standard Dutch, Flemish and Frisian this game is
>> commonly known by its compositional names (cf.
>> https://taalverhalen.be/minionderzoekje/een-open-hand-een-vuist-en-twee-vingers/),
>> there was a similar game played in the Dutch East Indies that was
>> called by the non-compositional name /soeten/ ('to/soet/', see
>> the first page on
>> http://www.indischhistorisch.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Anthonio_kinderspelletjes.pdf).
>> This name is derived from its Indonesian name /suwit - suit /or
>> /sut /(https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suit, see also, for example,
>> https://www.kompasiana.com/widikurniawan/60f979c17aa97822be2a9732/cara-suit-yang-perlahan-punah-semut-gajah-manusia,
>> also /gamsit/,
>> https://warisanbudaya.kemdikbud.go.id/?newdetail&detailCatat=7180
>> <https://warisanbudaya.kemdikbud.go.id/?newdetail&detailCatat=7180>)/./ It
>> is known as /pingsut /in Javanese
>> (https://jv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingsut) and /suten /in Sundanese
>> (https://su.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suten). Instead of rock, paper (or
>> leaf) and scissors and the whole hand (this game is literally
>> translated as /batu, gunting, kertas/ or /suwit jepang/ 'Japanese
>> /suwit/', https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batu_gunting_kertas), the
>> game uses elephant, man and ant and three fingers.
>>
>> In using animals, I guess it is similar to the Japanese game of
>> /mushi-ken/ (虫拳), which originated in China
>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sansukumi-ken).
>>
>> Best, Tim.
>>
>> On Mon, 2 May 2022 at 16:30, JOO, Ian [Student]
>> <ian.joo at connect.polyu.hk> wrote:
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I’m making a list of non-compositional words for the
>> rock-paper-scissors game or similar games.
>> In other words, I’m looking for words for
>> “rock-paper-scissors” that do not consist of words for
>> “rock”, “paper”, and “scissors”, or any other meanings, such
>> as German Schnick Schanck Schnuck, Thai bpao ying choop, etc.
>> I would much appreciate it if you could share with me any
>> words for this game or its kind that do not consist of
>> meaningful words.
>>
>> From Korea,
>> Ian
>>
>>
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> --
> David Gil
>
> Senior Scientist (Associate)
> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
>
> Email:gil at shh.mpg.de
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--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email:gil at shh.mpg.de
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
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