[Lingtyp] query: cumulative songs

Sun Feb 12 20:56:12 UTC 2023

Dear Florian,
it is great that you provided this Laal example, as it is very similar to
the type of folkloric text that came to my mind when I read the original
query. It does not seem to fall under the definition of cumulative song,
though, as there is no "progressive addition so that each verse is longer
than the verse before <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumulative_song>".
In the languages of Daghestan (but also in Russian), one occasionally finds
the texts of this type, which represent "chains" of short question-answer
pairs, often with absurdist content. An example below is from Agul (<
Nakh-Daghestanian) - I only give the English translation, but you can see
the original attached (with the glosses and translation in Russian).

*- Where are you going, Chiday?- To the forest.- What to do in the forest?-
To cut wood.- What's the cutting of wood for?- To make a bridge.- What's
the bridge for?- For water to flow underneath.- What's the water for?- To
splash on a hummock.- What's the hummock for?- For young grass to grow on
it. - What's the grass for?- For a goat kid to eat.- What's the goat kid
for?- To slaughter it with a knife.- What's the knife for?- To hang on
someone's side.- What's the side for?- For ants to eat.- What are the ants
for?- To kill them by throwing a lump of earth.*

I wonder if there is a conventional term for this type of text. (In
Russian, they are often referred to as *прибаутки*, but this term covers a
wider range of "children's" folkloric texts.)

Very best,
Timur Maisak

вс, 12 февр. 2023 г. в 22:24, Florian Lionnet <flionnet at princeton.edu>:

> PS: I just noticed an inconsistency in the glosses of the Laal song.
> Mid-toned transitive verbs are realized with a L tone when they are
> followed by their object. This is sometimes not explicitly shown in the
> glosses (*sè* 'kill:TR') and sometimes explicitly analyzed as involving
> a floating L tone (*sē-B* 'kill-TR'; 'B' for French "bas' = low). (My
> most recent analysis does not involve a floating L tone anymore, cf. my
> forthcoming paper on the tonology of Laal if interested:
> https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/006820).
>
>
> --
> Florian Lionnet
> Assistant Professor
> Director of Undergraduate Studies
> Program in Linguistics
> Princeton University
> http://www.princeton.edu/~flionnet/
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
> Florian Lionnet <flionnet at princeton.edu>
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 12, 2023 2:16 PM
> *To:* Zygmunt Frajzyngier <zygmunt.frajzyngier at colorado.edu>; Claire
> Bowern <clairebowern at gmail.com>; Johanna Mattissen <
> Johanna.Mattissen at uni-koeln.de>
> *Cc:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >
> *Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] query: cumulative songs
>
> Dear David,
>
> There is a cumulative song in Laal (and neighboring languages in southern
> Chad: Boor, Ba, etc.), which is very similar to the Had Gadya you mention.
> I paste below the text of the version sung by Nyindu Hyabalo and Assiam
> Kirga in Gori (Chad) on March 21, 2012 (it seems that they did not remember
> exactly how the song ends). The original recording and
> translation/annotation can be found in the Laal collection in the DOBES
> archive, in open access (see ref. below). Glosses are in French, with a
> translation in French and English. I don't know what the origin of the song
> is, whether it is a local adaptation of a song orignally from elsewhere
> (and if so where), or even how long it's been known in the region.
>
> As you will wee, it does not involve embedding. Laal does have relative
> clauses (and other forms of syntactic embedding), but none are used in the
> song.
>
> I hope this is of interest!
>
> Best,
> Florian
>
> [Reference: Nyindu Hyabalo, Assiam Kirga, Florian Lionnet, and Sandrine
> Loncke. 2012. Item "GDM-Go_20120321_F_AK3-NH1_Contes1_1". In collection
> "Laal". The Language Archive.
> https://hdl.handle.net/1839/693a668e-6087-45bf-b32f-c6a736f06ccb
> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhdl.handle.net%2F1839%2F693a668e-6087-45bf-b32f-c6a736f06ccb&data=05%7C01%7Cflionnet%40princeton.edu%7C7dfdeb65f62141a17be108db0d2db7fa%7C2ff601167431425db5af077d7791bda4%7C0%7C0%7C638118262269074341%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=PhtAacywlqEPoq4WwkSwlwtwE41pLIQB3KIxosAxFQg%3D&reserved=0>.
> (Accessed 2023-02-12).]
>
>
> *ŋguālāg           ò          pɨ́r        tuààr   ɓə̀        yə́ *
>
> chat.sauvage   2SG.SBJ           attraper           poulet pour    quoi
>
> *Chat sauvage, pourquoi as-tu attrapé la poule? *
>
> *Wild cat, why did you catch the chicken? *
>
>
>
> *pɨ́r        tuààr   ní         tuààr   sə̀rí      jāŋāl
> ɓə̀        yə́ *
>
> attraper           poulet et         poulet picorer termite
> pour    quoi
>
> *Attrapé la poule et pourquoi la poule a-t-elle picoré le termite? *
>
>
> *Catch the chicken and why did the chicken peck the termite? *
>
>
>
> *tuààr   ò          sə̀rí      jāŋāl    ɓə̀        yə́ *
>
> poulet 2SG.SBJ           picorer termite            pour    quoi
>
> *Poule, pourquoi as-tu picoré le termite? *
>
> *Chicken, why did you peck the termite?*
>
>
>
> *sə̀rí      jāŋāl    ní         jāŋāl    pɨ́r        ŋguán
> ɓə̀        yə́ *
>
> picorer termite            et         termite            attraper
> mortier            pour    quoi
>
> *Picoré le termite, et Pourquoi le termite a-t-il ingesté (lit. pris) le
> mortier?*
>
> *Peck the termite and why did the termite infest (lit. take) the mortar? *
>
>
>
> *jāŋāl    ò          pɨ́r       ŋguán  ɓə̀        yə́ *
>
> termite            2SG.SBJ attraper         mortier            pour
> quoi
>
> *Termite, pourquoi as-tu infesté le mortier? *
>
> *Termite, why did you infest the mortar? *
>
>
>
> *pɨ́r        ŋguán  ní         ŋguán  sè        mèrɨ̀m ɓə̀
> yə́ *
>
> attraper           mortier            et         mortier
> tuer:TR            animal pour    quoi
>
> *Pris le mortier, et pourquoi le mortier a-t-il tué l'animal? *
>
> *Infest the mortar and why did the mortar kill the animal?*
>
>
>
> *ŋguán  ò          sē        -B         mèrɨ̀m ɓə̀        yə́ *
>
> mortier            2SG.SBJ           tuer:TR            animal pour
> quoi
>
> *Mortier, pourquoi as-tu tué l'animal? *
>
> *Mortar, why did you kill the animal? *
>
>
>
> *sē        -B         mèrɨ̀m ní         mèrɨ̀m sɨ̄r        -B
> sū        ɓə̀        yə́ *
>
> tuer:TR            animal et         animal boire:TR          eau
> pour    quoi
>
> *Tué l'animal, et pourquoi l'animal a bu l'eau? *
>
> *Kill the animal and why did the animal drink the water? *
>
>
>
> *mèrɨ̀m ò          sɨ̀r        sū        ɓə̀        yə́ *
>
> animal 2SG.SBJ           boire:TR          eau      pour    quoi
>
> *Animal, pourquoi as-tu bu l'eau? *
>
> *Animal, why did you drink the water? *
>
>
>
> *sɨ̀r        sū        ní         sū        sè        kū
> ɓə̀        yə́ *
>
> boire:TR          eau      et         eau      tuer:TR            feu
> pour    quoi
>
> *Bu l'eau, et pourquoi l'eau a-t-elle éteint le feu? *
>
> *Drink the water and why did the water extinghish the fire? *
>
>
>
> *sū        ò          sè        kū        ɓə̀        yə́ *
>
> eau      2SG.SBJ           tuer:TR            feu       pour    quoi
>
> *Eau, pourquoi as-tu éteint le feu? *
>
> *Water, why did you extinghish the fire? *
>
>
>
> *sè        kū        ní         kū        kàw     nyōō
> ɓə̀        yə́ *
>
> tuer:TR            feu       et         feu       brûler:TR
> herbe.PL          pour    quoi
>
> *Eteint le feu et pourquoi le feu a-t-il brûlé l'herbe? *
>
> *Extinghish the fire and why did the fire burn the grass? *
>
>
>
> *kū        ò          kàw     nyōō    ɓə̀        yə́ *
>
> feu       2SG.SBJ           brûler:TR         herbe.PL          pour
> quoi
>
> *Feu, pourquoi as-tu brûlé l'herbe? *
>
> *Fire, why did you burn the grass? *
>
>
>
> *kàw     nyōō    ní         nyōō    túrá     jàg       ɓə̀
> yə́ *
>
> brûler:TR         herbe.PL          et         herbe.PL          perdre
> couteau.de.jet pour    quoi
>
> *Brûlé l'herbe et pourquoi l'herbe a-t-elle fait disaparaitre (lit. perdu)
> le couteau de jet? *
>
> *Burn the grass and why did the grass make the throwing knife disappear
> (lit. why did you lose the throwing knife, i.e. someone lost their throwing
> knife in the grass)? *
>
>
>
> *ò          túrá     jàg       ɓə̀        yə́ *
>
> 2SG.SBJ           perdre couteau.de.jet pour    quoi
>
> *[Herbe], pourquoi as-tu perdu le couteau de jet? *
>
> *[Grass], why did you make the throwing knife disappear? *
>
>
>
> *jàg       ò          jàr        muǎŋ   ɓə̀        yə́ *
>
> couteau.de.jet 2SG.SBJ           égorger           personne.PL    pour
> quoi
>
> *Couteau de jet, pourquoi as-tu égorgé les êtres humains? *
>
> *Throwing knife, why did you slaughter people? *
>
>
>
> *jàr        muǎŋ   ní         muǎŋ   bān      wáŋ     ɓə̀
> yə́ *
>
> égorger           personne.PL    et         personne.PL    être.nombreux
> très(nombreux) pour  quoi
>
> *Egorgé les gens, et pourquoi les êtres humains sont-ils si nombreux? *
>
> *Slaughter people and why are people so numerous? *
>
>
>
> *muǎŋ   ùn        bān      muǎŋ   ɓə̀        yə́ *
>
> personne.PL    2PL.SBJ            être.nombreux            personne.PL
> pour    quoi
>
> *Etres humains, pourquoi êtes-vous si nombreux? *
>
> *People, why are you so numerous? *
>
>
>
> *bān      wáŋ     ní         mē       sòònǔ  ɓə̀        yə́ *
>
> être.nombreux            très(nombreux)           et         mort
> tuer:1PL.EX.OBJ          pour    quoi
>
> vi         ideo     coord   n          vt         -suf.v   prep    interr
>
> *Si nombreux, et pourquoi la mort nous tue-t-elle? *
>
> *So numerous and why does death kill us? *
>
>
>
> *mē       ò          sòònǔ  ɓə̀        yə́ *
>
> mort    2SG.SBJ           tuer:1PL.EX.OBJ          pour    quoi
>
> *Mort, pourquoi nous tues-tu? *
>
> *Death, why do you kill us? *
>
>
>
> *sòònǔ  ní         muǎŋ... *
>
> tuer:1PL.EX.OBJ          et         personne.PL
>
> *Nous tues, et les êtres humains... *
>
> *Kill us and people… *
>
>
>
> *bān      wáŋ... *
>
> être.nombreux            très(nombreux)
>
> *sont si nombreux... *
>
> *are so numerous… *
>
>
>
> *(...)       jààná   wúlá     *
>
> origine:3N.SG.POSS    se.terminer
>
> *C'est fini (lit. "son origine est terminée", c'est-à-dire le conte est
> terminé). *
>
> *The end (lit. "its origin is finished", i.e. it’s the end of the tale.) *
>
>
>
> --
> Florian Lionnet
> Assistant Professor
> Director of Undergraduate Studies
> Program in Linguistics
> Princeton University
> http://www.princeton.edu/~flionnet/
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
> Zygmunt Frajzyngier <zygmunt.frajzyngier at colorado.edu>
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 12, 2023 12:21 PM
> *To:* Claire Bowern <clairebowern at gmail.com>; Johanna Mattissen <
> Johanna.Mattissen at uni-koeln.de>
> *Cc:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >
> *Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] query: cumulative songs
>
>
> Thanks, Claire
>
> Zygmunt
>
>
>
> *From: *Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
> Claire Bowern <clairebowern at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 8:59 AM
> *To: *Johanna Mattissen <Johanna.Mattissen at uni-koeln.de>
> *Cc: *"lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org" <
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] query: cumulative songs
>
>
>
> A point of clarification seems needed. "Weird" societies refers to the
> notion that Joseph Henrich's popularized: *W*estern, *E*ducated, *I*ndustrialized,
> *R*ich, *D*emocratic humans are overrepresented in psychological (and
> linguistic) studies but their cultures are not representative of the full
> range of human traits.
>
> Claire
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 12, 2023 at 8:35 AM Johanna Mattissen <
> Johanna.Mattissen at uni-koeln.de> wrote:
>
> Dear David,
>
>
>
> multiple embedding makes me think not of a song, but of bonmots which are
> intended as mockeries of the German Satzklammer.
>
>
>
> One is attributed to Wolf Schneider:
>
> Denken Sie, wie schön der Krieger, der die Botschaft, die den Sieg, den
> die Athener bei Marathon, obwohl sie in der Minderheit waren, nach Athen,
> das in großer Sorge, ob es die Perser nicht zerstören würden, schwebte,
> erfochten hatten, verkündete, brachte, starb!
>
> Roughly (without the Satzklammer)
>
> Just imagine, in which great way the warrior died who brought the message
> that announced the victory that Athens achieved at Marathon although they
> were in the minority, to Athens that was in great worries that the Persians
> could destroy the city.
>
>
>
> The other one (unknown source) is:
>
> Der Grenzpfahl, der bei der Gemeinde, in der das Gefängnis, in dem seit
> gestern der gesuchte Einbrecher sitzt, liegt, steht, ist umgefallen.
>
> The boundary marker has fallen over that is near the town where the prison
> is in which the wanted burglar sits (with the predicates 'sits, lies,
> stands, has fallen over' accumulated in final position).
>
>
>
> Of course, you can easily invent further ones:
>
> Er fuhr, nachdem er zum Abschied seine Frau, die ihn an das wichtige
> Manuskript, das noch auf dem Schreibtisch, auf dem große Unordnung, die er
> selbst zu verantworten hatte, herrschte, lag, erinnert hatte, geküsst
> hatte, ab.
>
>
>
> (He hit the road after kissing his wife farewell who had reminded him to
> take the important manuscript with him that had still been lying on his
> desk amidst a great disorder for which he himself was responsible.)
>
>
>
> All grammatical, but you get entangled in the end. Enjoy!
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Johanna
>
>
>
>
>
> ******************
> Dr. Johanna Mattissen European Legal Linguistics University of Cologne
> www.erl.uni-koeln.de
> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.erl.uni-koeln.de%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cflionnet%40princeton.edu%7C7dfdeb65f62141a17be108db0d2db7fa%7C2ff601167431425db5af077d7791bda4%7C0%7C0%7C638118262269074341%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=AkU28SkA9t82NABGBsMaLEXbNhZugQi71M1ROG4CGsI%3D&reserved=0> Zeitschrift
> für Europäische Rechtslinguistik (Journal for European Legal Linguistics)
> https://journals.ub.uni-koeln.de/index.php/zerl
> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjournals.ub.uni-koeln.de%2Findex.php%2Fzerl&data=05%7C01%7Cflionnet%40princeton.edu%7C7dfdeb65f62141a17be108db0d2db7fa%7C2ff601167431425db5af077d7791bda4%7C0%7C0%7C638118262269074341%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3z8rgMSmqnyAL3I5QglP6XcrUz9bwBJFDs4bPfd5jbg%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Am 12.02.2023 um 08:13 schrieb David Gil:
>
> Dear all,
>
> A cumulative song is one in which each unit, or stanza, introduces an
> additional layer of syntactic embedding, such as the following ...
>
> This is the house that Jack built.
>
> This is the malt that lay in the house that Jack built.
>
> This is the rat that ate the malt
>
> That lay in the house that Jack built.
>
> This is the cat
>
> That killed the rat that ate the malt
>
> That lay in the house that Jack built.
>
> This is the dog that worried the cat
>
> That killed the rat that ate the malt
>
> That lay in the house that Jack built.
>
> ... and so forth.  Perhaps the earliest example of a cumulative song is
> the Jewish Aramaic hymn *Had Gadya*.
>
> My query: Is anybody familiar with examples of cumulative songs from other
> non-WEIRD cultures and languages.  While my main interest is in
> "indigenous" attestations, I would also be interested in successful
> adaptations and translations of western cumulative songs into other
> languages.
>
> (Background to the query: I am interested in exploring variation in the
> propensity of different languages to make use of syntactic embedding.  My
> focus is on languages such as Malay/Indonesian, which have various tools to
> construct embedded clauses but generally choose not to make use of them in
> natural discourse.  I would like to test the hypothesis that such
> cumulative songs are absent or otherwise less successful in such languages.)
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>
>
>
> --
>
> David Gil
>
>
>
> Senior Scientist (Associate)
>
> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
>
> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
>
> Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
>
>
>
> Email: gil at shh.mpg.de
>
> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
>
> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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