[Lingtyp] Lingtyp Digest, Vol 101, Issue 9

Mon Feb 13 17:53:32 UTC 2023

Dear David,

There are several Berber versions of the much more widespread cumulative
tale of the old woman and her pet, such as Djarallah's for Chaoui:

https://www.cairn.info/revue-etudes-et-documents-berberes-1993-1-page-135.htm

This is, however, a cumulative tale only by the usual folklorists'
definition, not by the syntactic criterion you propose; the increasingly
long and involved chain of purposes is handled entirely by parataxis
throughout, so it may not be what you're looking for.

Best,
Lameen

On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 12:00 PM <lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org>
wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: query: cumulative songs (Siva Kalyan)
>    2. Re: query: cumulative songs (Fran?oise Rose)
>    3. Re: query: cumulative songs (Christian Lehmann)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 15:17:45 +1000
> From: Siva Kalyan <sivakalyan.princeton at gmail.com>
> To: David Gil <gil at shh.mpg.de>
> Cc: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
>         <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: cumulative songs
> Message-ID: <F157E391-4F8B-4B54-B30C-BE2B4BF5B9AD at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I know of something like this in Tamil: a children?s story where a fly has
> forgotten its name, and so asks a calf, the calf?s mother, the calf?s
> mother?s cowherd, the cowherd?s stick, the tree where the stick came from,
> the crane that lives in the tree, the pond where the crane swims, the fish
> in the pond, the fisherman who catches the fish, the pot in the fisherman?s
> hand, the clay from which the pot was made, the grass growing in the clay,
> and the horse eating the grass. At the end, the horse says /i???/, which
> happens to be the Tamil word for ?fly?.
>
> Crucially, each time the fly asks someone different, it recites the list
> of everyone it has asked so far. Thus:
>
> O plump calf, what is my name?
>
> O plump calf, O calf?s mother, what is my name?
>
> O plump calf, O calf?s mother, O cowherd who tends the mother, what is my
> name?
>
> O plump calf, O calf?s mother, O cowherd who tends the mother, O stick in
> the cowherd?s hand, what is my name?
>
> Etc., etc.
>
> The original text can be found here <
> https://kuvikam.com/2020/09/15/%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%8A%E0%AE%B4%E0%AF%81-%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%8A%E0%AE%B4%E0%AF%81-%E0%AE%95%E0%AE%A9%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%B1%E0%AF%87/>
> (though it?s slightly different from the one I learned as a child); let me
> know if you need transliteration or glossing.
>
> I?m aware that this doesn?t involve syntactic embedding, but it?s
> definitely cumulative.
>
> Siva
>
> > On 12 Feb 2023, at 5:13 pm, David Gil <gil at shh.mpg.de> wrote:
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > A cumulative song is one in which each unit, or stanza, introduces an
> additional layer of syntactic embedding, such as the following ...
> >
> > This is the house that Jack built.
> > This is the malt that lay in the house that Jack built.
> > This is the rat that ate the malt
> > That lay in the house that Jack built.
> > This is the cat
> > That killed the rat that ate the malt
> > That lay in the house that Jack built.
> > This is the dog that worried the cat
> > That killed the rat that ate the malt
> > That lay in the house that Jack built.
> >
> > ... and so forth.  Perhaps the earliest example of a cumulative song is
> the Jewish Aramaic hymn Had Gadya.
> >
> > My query: Is anybody familiar with examples of cumulative songs from
> other non-WEIRD cultures and languages.  While my main interest is in
> "indigenous" attestations, I would also be interested in successful
> adaptations and translations of western cumulative songs into other
> languages.
> >
> > (Background to the query: I am interested in exploring variation in the
> propensity of different languages to make use of syntactic embedding.  My
> focus is on languages such as Malay/Indonesian, which have various tools to
> construct embedded clauses but generally choose not to make use of them in
> natural discourse.  I would like to test the hypothesis that such
> cumulative songs are absent or otherwise less successful in such languages.)
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > David Gil
> >
> > Senior Scientist (Associate)
> > Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
> > Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> > Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
> >
> > Email: gil at shh.mpg.de <mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>
> > Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
> > Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 08:48:06 +0000
> From: Fran?oise Rose <francoise.rose at univ-lyon2.fr>
> To: David Gil <gil at shh.mpg.de>, "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
>         <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: cumulative songs
> Message-ID: <9effe9757a02436fac565dcdc154e51b at univ-lyon2.fr>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear David,
> I have recorded a cumulative tale in Moje?o Trinitario (not sung), an
> Arawak language of Bolivia.
> Best,
> Fran?oise
>
> De : Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> De la part de
> David Gil
> Envoy? : dimanche 12 f?vrier 2023 08:13
> ? : lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> Objet : [Lingtyp] query: cumulative songs
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> A cumulative song is one in which each unit, or stanza, introduces an
> additional layer of syntactic embedding, such as the following ...
> This is the house that Jack built.
> This is the malt that lay in the house that Jack built.
> This is the rat that ate the malt
> That lay in the house that Jack built.
> This is the cat
> That killed the rat that ate the malt
> That lay in the house that Jack built.
> This is the dog that worried the cat
> That killed the rat that ate the malt
> That lay in the house that Jack built.
>
> ... and so forth.  Perhaps the earliest example of a cumulative song is
> the Jewish Aramaic hymn Had Gadya.
>
> My query: Is anybody familiar with examples of cumulative songs from other
> non-WEIRD cultures and languages.  While my main interest is in
> "indigenous" attestations, I would also be interested in successful
> adaptations and translations of western cumulative songs into other
> languages.
>
> (Background to the query: I am interested in exploring variation in the
> propensity of different languages to make use of syntactic embedding.  My
> focus is on languages such as Malay/Indonesian, which have various tools to
> construct embedded clauses but generally choose not to make use of them in
> natural discourse.  I would like to test the hypothesis that such
> cumulative songs are absent or otherwise less successful in such languages.)
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>
>
>
> --
>
> David Gil
>
>
>
> Senior Scientist (Associate)
>
> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
>
> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
>
> Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
>
>
>
> Email: gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>
>
> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
>
> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 10:05:33 +0000
> From: Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>
> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: cumulative songs
> Message-ID: <810ee5a2-1f27-f50f-a567-68a3ca30771f at uni-erfurt.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"
>
> Dear David and everybody,
>
> you may wish to complete the perspective by subtractive songs. I know of
> one German folk song of this kind:
>
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auf_der_Mauer,_auf_der_Lauer
>
> Youtube presents a set of performances.
>
> Best,
>
> Christian
>
> --
>
> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> Rudolfstr. 4
> 99092 Erfurt
> Deutschland
>
> Tel.:   +49/361/2113417
> E-Post:         christianw_lehmann at arcor.de
> Web:    https://www.christianlehmann.eu
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>
> End of Lingtyp Digest, Vol 101, Issue 9
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