[Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
Maria Kholodilova
hol_m at mail.ru
Thu Jul 18 13:16:32 UTC 2024
Dear Zahra,
Russian possessive pronoun твой ‘your’, when used non-possessively, seems very similar to English your in its preference for generic contexts, but it is, as far as I know, almost limited to one very particular position, namely the standard of comparison in colloquial and probably a little archaic equatives with the comparison marker что ‘that’, e.g. Поет, что твой соловей (lit. sings that your nightingale) ‘He sings like a nightingale’. In the less colloquial equatives with the comparison marker как ‘like’, it does occur, but seems somewhat less felicituous. Constructions like твой обычный / средний ‘your avarage’ don’t seem acceptable in Russian with a non-possessive reading.
I don’t think твой ‘your’ has any other usages that are not available to other possessive constructions in Russian, even though I can suppose that some functions available to a wide range of possessive constructions could be described as discourse/pragmatic under a broad definition, e.g. Russian translation of your construction / Misha’s construction can easily refer to a construction you or Misha brought up. I assume that this is not something you are currently interested in and only mention it to not make my remark misleading.
Best,
Maria
>Четверг, 18 июля 2024, 15:13 +03:00 от lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org:
>
>Send Lingtyp mailing list submissions to
>lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
>lingtyp-owner at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of Lingtyp digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Discourse functions of possessive markers
> (Zahra Etebari Shekarsaraei)
> 2. Re: Discourse functions of possessive markers
> (Zahra Etebari Shekarsaraei)
> 3. Re: Discourse functions of possessive markers (Randy J. LaPolla)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 20:47:55 +0000
>From: Zahra Etebari Shekarsaraei < zahra.etebari at lingfil.uu.se >
>To: Michael Daniel < misha.daniel at gmail.com >
>Cc: " lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org "
>< lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org >
>Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
>Message-ID: < c789ae4cb330424d9e3141fd546fbafa at lingfil.uu.se >
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>Dear Michael and all,
>
>What you are referring to is similar to the function that is quite common in Ugric and Samoyed 2nd person possessives. Nikolaeva (2003) calls it ?linking to the speech setting? which she distinguishes from definiteness. Here are some lines from her work (Nikolaeva 2003: 7):
>
>?The 2nd person possessive has a different function. It may indicate that the speaker
>somehow pragmatically associates the listener and the referent of the corresponding noun. [?] For example, the Ostyak sentence 15a can be produced when the speaker and the addressee look at several moving cars. The speaker wants to refer to one of these cars and uses the word car with the 2nd person possessive affix, although the car does
>not belong to the listener in any way. The reason for using the possessive suffix is that the
>speaker intends to call the attention of the listener to the car. Basically the car is ?yours?
>because ?I am talking to you about it?. So the possessive affix indicates that in the
>consciousness of the speaker the listener and the car are pragmatically linked.
>
>(15) a. Wanta t_m ma?inaj-en jowra m_n_s. [Ostyak]
> See this car-2SG awry went.3SG
> Look, that car went awry.
>
>[?] they express a pragmatic association between the respective referent and another entity. This apparently creates a special emotional effect for the addressee.?
>
>
>Nikolaeva, I. 2003. Possessive affixes in the pragmatic structuring of the utterance: evidence from Uralic. In P. M. Suihkonen and B. Comrie (eds.), International symposium on deictic systems and quantification in languages spoken in Europe and North and Central Asia (Collection of papers), 130?145. Izhevsk and Leipzig: Udmurt State University and Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
>
>Best,
>Zahra
>
>
>From: Michael Daniel < misha.daniel at gmail.com >
>Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2024 8:11 PM
>To: Zahra Etebari Shekarsaraei < zahra.etebari at lingfil.uu.se >; list, typology < LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >
>Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
>
>Dear Zahra,
>
>I think I heard a variety of American English where "your" was used in a very much discourse way, literally on one NP out of three or four. I cannot describe the function properly (probably, supporting contact with the interlocutor) and cannot place it regionally - maybe native speakers will help.
>
>Michael Daniel
>
>--
>?????? ???????
>? ??????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???????.
>Michael Daniel
>I condemn my country's aggression in Ukraine.
>
>
>??, 16 ???. 2024??. ? 14:53, Zahra Etebari Shekarsaraei via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org >>:
>Dear all,
>
>I am preparing a dataset for development of discourse functions in possessive/personal markers cross-linguistically. I am particularly interested in constructions (relevant examples below) where a possessive/personal marker is used not to convey possession or refer to another item, but to denote functions such as definiteness, topicality, emphasis or contrast.
>
>Definiteness
>
> 1. K?tip tur?an adam? kelmedi. [Karakalpak]
>
>The person he/she has been waiting for did not come.
>
>(Utepovich 2023: 80)
>
>
>Contrast
>
> 1. Ulizy-vylizy kyk bratjos, pok?i-ez [Udmurt]
> lived-were.3SG two brothers younger.brother-3SG
> kuaner, by?ym-ez uzyr.
> Poor older.brother-3SG rich
> There lived two brothers, the younger one was poor, the older one was rich.
> (Serebrennikov 1963: 133)
>
>So far, I have collected cases from over 60 language varieties spanning Uralic (Ugric, Permic, Mari, Mordvin, Samoyed), Altaic (Turkic, Tungusic, Mongolic), Indo-European (Iranic), Afro-Asiatic (Semitic), and Austronesian (Javanese, Malay) families. If you have encountered similar uses in a language you work on or if you are aware of any lesser-known source on this topic, especially non-English sources, I would be extremely grateful if you could share them with me.
>
>Many thanks for your time!
>
>
>Best wishes,
>Zahra
>
>
>References:
>
>Serebrennikov, Boris A. 1963. Istoriceskaja Morfologija Permskix Jazykov [Historical morphology of the Permic languages]. Moscow: Izdate?stvo AN SSSR.
>
>Utepovich, Bekbergenov H. 2023. Semantic peculiarities of the possessive affixes in the Karakalpak language and their equivalents in English. Journal of Advanced Linguistic Studies. 10(2). 64-82.
>
>
>
>Zahra Etebari
>Postdoctoral researcher
>Department of Linguistics and Philology
>Uppsala University
>Thunbergsv?gen 3H, Box 635
>75126 Uppsala, Sweden
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>N?r du har kontakt med oss p? Uppsala universitet med e-post s? inneb?r det att vi behandlar dina personuppgifter. F?r att l?sa mer om hur vi g?r det kan du l?sa h?r: http://www.uu.se/om-uu/dataskydd-personuppgifter/
>
>E-mailing Uppsala University means that we will process your personal data. For more information on how this is performed, please read here: http://www.uu.se/en/about-uu/data-protection-policy
>_______________________________________________
>Lingtyp mailing list
>Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto: Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org >
>https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
>
>VARNING: Klicka inte p? l?nkar och ?ppna inte bilagor om du inte k?nner igen avs?ndaren och vet att inneh?llet ?r s?kert.
>CAUTION: Do not click on links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe.
>
>
>-------------- next part --------------
>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>URL: < http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20240717/1e7ea3f0/attachment-0001.htm >
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2024 21:36:16 +0000
>From: Zahra Etebari Shekarsaraei < zahra.etebari at lingfil.uu.se >
>To: Guillaume Jacques < rgyalrongskad at gmail.com >
>Cc: " lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org "
>< lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org >
>Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
>Message-ID: < 75cc35e0d98e4ed6a70d44298359aa6c at lingfil.uu.se >
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>Dear Guillaume,
>
>Considering similar possessive constructions, I think when someone emphasizes one member of a group by highlighting a particular feature, it typically conveys a superlative meaning. This suggests that the member is likely perceived as the best in that feature. For example, in Persian one can say:
>
>Zerang=e?un goft
>Smart=3pl said
>?The smart one of them said?
>
>This implies that the other members are either not smart or not as smart as this person, making this person the smartest. I am not sure about other languages, but in Perisan, =e?un still refers to a plural entity in such uses.
>
>All the best,
>Zahra
>
>
>From: Guillaume Jacques < rgyalrongskad at gmail.com >
>Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2024 5:49 PM
>To: Zahra Etebari Shekarsaraei < zahra.etebari at lingfil.uu.se >
>Cc: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
>
>Dear Zahra,
>
>It is maybe not what you are looking for, but in Japhug, the possessive prefixes on the participle of an adjectival verb can be used to express a superlative meaning, as in the following example.
>
>[p?a t?amt??t ?? n?-k?-mp??r] n? rm??ja ??-?u.
>bird all gen 3pl.poss-sbj:pcp-be.beautiful dem peacock sens-be
>'The most beautiful of all birds is the peacock.'
>(ex 82, p. 1451 of the Japhug grammar, A grammar of Japhug | Language Science Press (langsci-press.org)<https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/295>)
>
>Although it can be viewed as a special type of possessive construction (literally "The beautiful one of/among the birds"), I thought that was nevertheless distinct enough from usual possessive constructions to be interesting to your query, and perhaps relatable to the "emphatic" function of possessive prefixes you mention.
>
>I actually wonder if this is a crosslinguistically widespread way of expressing superlative.
>
>Guillaume
>
>
>Le mar. 16 juil. 2024 ? 14:53, Zahra Etebari Shekarsaraei via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org >> a ?crit :
>Dear all,
>
>I am preparing a dataset for development of discourse functions in possessive/personal markers cross-linguistically. I am particularly interested in constructions (relevant examples below) where a possessive/personal marker is used not to convey possession or refer to another item, but to denote functions such as definiteness, topicality, emphasis or contrast.
>
>Definiteness
>
> 1. K?tip tur?an adam? kelmedi. [Karakalpak]
>
>The person he/she has been waiting for did not come.
>
>(Utepovich 2023: 80)
>
>
>Contrast
>
> 1. Ulizy-vylizy kyk bratjos, pok?i-ez [Udmurt]
> lived-were.3SG two brothers younger.brother-3SG
> kuaner, by?ym-ez uzyr.
> Poor older.brother-3SG rich
> There lived two brothers, the younger one was poor, the older one was rich.
> (Serebrennikov 1963: 133)
>
>So far, I have collected cases from over 60 language varieties spanning Uralic (Ugric, Permic, Mari, Mordvin, Samoyed), Altaic (Turkic, Tungusic, Mongolic), Indo-European (Iranic), Afro-Asiatic (Semitic), and Austronesian (Javanese, Malay) families. If you have encountered similar uses in a language you work on or if you are aware of any lesser-known source on this topic, especially non-English sources, I would be extremely grateful if you could share them with me.
>
>Many thanks for your time!
>
>
>Best wishes,
>Zahra
>
>
>References:
>
>Serebrennikov, Boris A. 1963. Istoriceskaja Morfologija Permskix Jazykov [Historical morphology of the Permic languages]. Moscow: Izdate?stvo AN SSSR.
>
>Utepovich, Bekbergenov H. 2023. Semantic peculiarities of the possessive affixes in the Karakalpak language and their equivalents in English. Journal of Advanced Linguistic Studies. 10(2). 64-82.
>
>
>
>Zahra Etebari
>Postdoctoral researcher
>Department of Linguistics and Philology
>Uppsala University
>Thunbergsv?gen 3H, Box 635
>75126 Uppsala, Sweden
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>N?r du har kontakt med oss p? Uppsala universitet med e-post s? inneb?r det att vi behandlar dina personuppgifter. F?r att l?sa mer om hur vi g?r det kan du l?sa h?r: http://www.uu.se/om-uu/dataskydd-personuppgifter/
>
>E-mailing Uppsala University means that we will process your personal data. For more information on how this is performed, please read here: http://www.uu.se/en/about-uu/data-protection-policy
>_______________________________________________
>Lingtyp mailing list
>Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto: Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org >
>https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
>
>--
>Guillaume Jacques
>
>Directeur de recherches
>CNRS (CRLAO) - EPHE- INALCO
>https://scholar.google.fr/citations?user=1XCp2-oAAAAJ&hl=fr
>https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/295 < http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques >
>http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
>
>
>VARNING: Klicka inte p? l?nkar och ?ppna inte bilagor om du inte k?nner igen avs?ndaren och vet att inneh?llet ?r s?kert.
>CAUTION: Do not click on links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe.
>
>
>-------------- next part --------------
>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>URL: < http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20240717/2121620a/attachment-0001.htm >
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2024 18:42:50 +0800
>From: "Randy J. LaPolla" < randy.lapolla at gmail.com >
>To: Juergen Bohnemeyer < jb77 at buffalo.edu >
>Cc: Marianne Mithun < mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu >,
>"< LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >"
>< LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >
>Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
>Message-ID: < E287D90E-53D0-4C3D-B500-31DDDFE3A0AA at gmail.com >
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>Thanks, Nigel, Andrew, Marianne, and J?rgen!
>
>J?rgen, I think the generic sense of the examples you cite might come from the use of ?average? with the phrase, but also might be partially due to the larger context.
>
>Randy
>
>> On 18 Jul 2024, at 3:58?AM, Juergen Bohnemeyer < jb77 at buffalo.edu > wrote:
>>
>> Dear all ? You?ll find plenty of examples in COCA etc. if you search for the phrase _your average_:
>>
>> Your average polite American will look the waiter or waitress in the eye, smile, have?
>> Their problem was simply a poor location in the minds of your average theater-goer.
>> ?CHopper would have packed a bigger punch and would have traveled much farther than your average motorcycle.
>>
>> And on and on. But, this use seems to be restricted to a form of generic reference. I don?t think this is about definiteness per se or definiteness in any narrow sense.
>>
>> Best ? Juergen
>>
>> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
>> Professor, Department of Linguistics
>> University at Buffalo
>>
>> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
>> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
>> Phone: (716) 645 0127
>> Fax: (716) 645 3825
>> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu <mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>
>> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
>>
>> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
>>
>> There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
>> (Leonard Cohen)
>> --
>>
>>
>> From: Lingtyp < lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org > on behalf of Marianne Mithun via Lingtyp < LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >
>> Date: Wednesday, July 17, 2024 at 15:26
>> To: Randy J. LaPolla < randy.lapolla at gmail.com >
>> Cc: < LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
>>
>> Dear Misha and Zahra,
>>
>> Good observation. I was thinking of exactly the kinds of examples Randy mentions second:
>>
>> What kinds of linguists are there? Well, you?ve got your formalists, your functionalists, your cognitivists, your typologists . . .
>>
>> Pretty common, I'd say, at least in North America. (Not something I myself would say, of course!)
>>
>> Marianne
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 11:38?AM Randy J. LaPolla via Lingtyp < lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>> wrote:
>> Dear Michael,
>> Are you thinking of the listing use of ?your?, as in the following made-up example? (I normally don?t like using made-up examples, but when I tried to search for a natural example the results were overwhelmed by the song ?You?ve got your troubles and I?ve got mine?.)
>>
>> What kinds of linguists are there? Well, you?ve got your formalists, your functionalists, your cognitivists, your typologists . . .
>>
>> Here ?your? could be replaced by ?the?, so it does seem to fit what Zahra is looking for.
>>
>> I have certainly heard this sort of thing, but don?t know if it is restricted to a particular region, though to my ear it sounds better with a Brooklyn accent (as does everything else ;-) ).
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>>
>> On 18 Jul 2024, at 2:10?AM, Michael Daniel via Lingtyp < lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Zahra,
>>
>> I think I heard a variety of American English where "your" was used in a very much discourse way, literally on one NP out of three or four. I cannot describe the function properly (probably, supporting contact with the interlocutor) and cannot place it regionally - maybe native speakers will help.
>>
>> Michael Daniel
>>
>> --
>> ?????? ???????
>> ? ??????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???????.
>> Michael Daniel
>> I condemn my country's aggression in Ukraine.
>>
>>
>> ??, 16 ???. 2024??. ? 14:53, Zahra Etebari Shekarsaraei via Lingtyp < lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I am preparing a dataset for development of discourse functions in possessive/personal markers cross-linguistically. I am particularly interested in constructions (relevant examples below) where a possessive/personal marker is used not to convey possession or refer to another item, but to denote functions such as definiteness, topicality, emphasis or contrast.
>>
>> Definiteness
>> a. K?tip tur?an adam? kelmedi. [Karakalpak]
>> The person he/she has been waiting for did not come.
>>
>> (Utepovich 2023: 80)
>>
>>
>>
>> Contrast
>> b. Ulizy-vylizy kyk bratjos, pok?i-ez [Udmurt]
>> lived-were.3SG two brothers younger.brother-3SG
>> kuaner, by?ym-ez uzyr.
>> Poor older.brother-3SG rich
>> There lived two brothers, the younger one was poor, the older one was rich.
>> (Serebrennikov 1963: 133)
>>
>> So far, I have collected cases from over 60 language varieties spanning Uralic (Ugric, Permic, Mari, Mordvin, Samoyed), Altaic (Turkic, Tungusic, Mongolic), Indo-European (Iranic), Afro-Asiatic (Semitic), and Austronesian (Javanese, Malay) families. If you have encountered similar uses in a language you work on or if you are aware of any lesser-known source on this topic, especially non-English sources, I would be extremely grateful if you could share them with me.
>>
>> Many thanks for your time!
>>
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Zahra
>>
>>
>> References:
>>
>> Serebrennikov, Boris A. 1963. Istoriceskaja Morfologija Permskix Jazykov [Historical morphology of the Permic languages]. Moscow: Izdate?stvo AN SSSR.
>>
>> Utepovich, Bekbergenov H. 2023. Semantic peculiarities of the possessive affixes in the Karakalpak language and their equivalents in English. Journal of Advanced Linguistic Studies. 10(2). 64-82.
>>
>>
>>
>> Zahra Etebari
>> Postdoctoral researcher
>> Department of Linguistics and Philology
>> Uppsala University
>> Thunbergsv?gen 3H, Box 635
>> 75126 Uppsala, Sweden
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> N?r du har kontakt med oss p? Uppsala universitet med e-post s? inneb?r det att vi behandlar dina personuppgifter. F?r att l?sa mer om hur vi g?r det kan du l?sa h?r: http://www.uu.se/om-uu/dataskydd-personuppgifter/
>>
>> E-mailing Uppsala University means that we will process your personal data. For more information on how this is performed, please read here: http://www.uu.se/en/about-uu/data-protection-policy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
>-------------- next part --------------
>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>URL: < http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20240718/7527e467/attachment-0001.htm >
>
>------------------------------
>
>Subject: Digest Footer
>
>_______________________________________________
>Lingtyp mailing list
>Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of Lingtyp Digest, Vol 118, Issue 24
>****************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20240718/d310add8/attachment.htm>
More information about the Lingtyp
mailing list