[Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
Eline Visser
eelienu at pm.me
Sat Jul 20 08:16:12 UTC 2024
Hi Zahra,
Your enquiry on lingtyp made me think about the third person singular possessive ini (shortened to in or ni) in Uruangnirin, an Austronesian language.
There are many instances of ini that I would not translate with his/hers/its in English, but I'm not sure if they are the kind of thing you're looking for. Here come some examples. Let me know what you make of them!
Times of the day (maybe some kind of implicit part-whole construction, as in 'the evening of that day', 'the next day of that day'):
ini farobroba kamo...
3SG.POSS evening then
then, its/that evening...
ini ruguain panik
3SG.POSS morning again
the next morning
Part-whole (but not the kind that requires a possessive in English, just a definite article)
afuna ini ah ai nas ati kanambo
do 3SG.POSS HES wood top go then
put its/the top wood up
+ many more from a text about building a house: all parts of the house (roofs, beams, walls, etc) are referred to with ini
Parts and sides:
pacul ini faruar
hoe 3SG.POSS middle
hoe its/the middle
ini matan pinca ke ka sina huna ati
3SG.POSS edge side PROX DIST 3PL do go
on its/the one edge they made...
Rituals and recipes (which kind of have fixed parts? also a kind of part-whole? definite?)
ini bawang
3SG.POSS onion
its/the onion
(+ a few more like this from the same text about making food)
(every meal has to have a sour dip)
bo dike huna ni makanini nora sira ato som
but FILL do 3SG.POSS lime with salt down already
but eh, have you made the lime with salt and put it down yet?
(about the preparations for feeding a ghost)
ini namnamin / ahuna ini fasa / ++
3SG.POSS food / make 3SG.POSS rice
its/the food, rice, etc
(about the "nabi" ritual)
sina afsawa punit ahun in nabi
3PL marry finish do 3SG.POSS nabi
after they are married, we do the "nabi"
Purposive, or just part-whole, like recipe, house?
ini idei
3SG.POSS sand
the sand [for the building project]
jadi pona sina huna tempo bo nosir bana ni idei bi pati bi
so like 3PL do quickly and say go 3SG.POSS sand or stones or
so like if they do it quickly then (I) say go get the sand, the stones [for building my kitchen]
Verb/adjective to noun derivation:
ini sinei, ini olat, ni manawas
3SG.POSS big, 3SG.POSS far, 3SG.POSS long
size, distance, length
Generic/essive?
tapi waktu ka kame ni irok dum to
but time DIST DIST 3SG.POSS shart lot right
but at that time there was a lot of shark, right (lit. that place had a lot of shark?)
Emphasis (but note there are other markers of emphasis in the first twoo examples: 'too' and interjections)
mancia ni maret rorang oh
people 3SG.POSS be.many too INT
there were so many people, oh!
neno froba ke ni mencia rong
oh.lord night PROX 3SG.POSS people too
oh lord, this night people were like... (not sure what speaker intends here)
ni minak
3SG.POSS tasty
it's tasty!
Emphasis? Or just essive? (the placement of ni in any case is strange: after the NP instead of before)
fes laklakir ke am ka nasa bunga conconto, bunga alus ni bunga lebarlebar ni neno
weed crawl PROX LOC DIST top flower types flower fine 3SG.POSS flower wide 3SG.POSS oh.lord
the crawling weeds down there are of all kinds, fine and broad, oh my god
Unclassified
(from an MPI stimulus kit video, I would use an indefinite article in English here, it's the first time we see the doll)
mapata afun ini boneka sa kamo
woman make 3SG.POSS doll one then
the woman makes her/a doll, then...
(about leftover planks the speaker got at a triplex company to build his house)
ini fafan pidpidir
3SG.POSS plank a.little
[the company's]/their/some planks
(about weeds in speaker's garden)
ini fes atubi
3SG.POSS weeds grow
its/the weeds grow
sina arwa amka kanambo afnonak in resin
3PL sleep there then tidy 3SG.POSS rest
then they sleep there, then tidy the rest (no idea the rest of what)
Best,
Eline
On Friday, July 19th, 2024 at 7:06 PM, lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
>
>
> Send Lingtyp mailing list submissions to
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> lingtyp-owner at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Lingtyp digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Discourse functions of possessive markers (Juergen Bohnemeyer)
> 2. Re: Discourse functions of possessive markers (Juergen Bohnemeyer)
> 3. Re: Discourse functions of possessive markers (Marianne Mithun)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 13:12:52 +0000
> From: Juergen Bohnemeyer jb77 at buffalo.edu
>
> To: Michael Daniel misha.daniel at gmail.com
>
> Cc: "Randy J. LaPolla" randy.lapolla at gmail.com,
>
> "LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org"
>
> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
> Message-ID:
> SJ0PR15MB469603D5F60E7D2C2438EBCDDDAD2 at SJ0PR15MB4696.namprd15.prod.outlook.com
>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear Michael ? Nicely spotted! With the caveat that I?m not an L1 speaker either: The writer here is not talking about an actual event, but an imagined one. I agree that this isn?t exactly generic, but it ?could as well? be, in the sense that it?s implied that any sequence of 100 balloon pops would become tedious. IDK to what extent empathy is a factor conditioning the use of the addressee pronoun here. Keep in mind that the person to be empathized with here would be the cleaning personal, not the referent of the addressee pronoun, who is the generic reader. But perhaps the reader is invited to imagine themselves in the position of the cleaners? ? Best ? Juergen
>
> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> Professor, Department of Linguistics
> University at Buffalo
>
> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> Phone: (716) 645 0127
> Fax: (716) 645 3825
> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edumailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu
>
> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
>
> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
>
> There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
> (Leonard Cohen)
> --
>
>
> From: Michael Daniel misha.daniel at gmail.com
>
> Date: Friday, July 19, 2024 at 02:01
> To: Juergen Bohnemeyer jb77 at buffalo.edu
>
> Cc: Randy J. LaPolla randy.lapolla at gmail.com, LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
>
> Dear all,
>
> I cannot help sharing an example of use that just caught my eye on BBC web site. This is not a list usage, and it could even be replaced by the (could it not?). It is not your average generic use:
>
> An avalanche of balloons is a great visual moment. But you have to feel for the cleaners. Right now I'm watching officials walk row-by-row on the arena floor with long sticks they are using to burst every balloon. It sounds fun, but maybe not after your 100th pop.
>
> Apart from empathy effect (potentially, I leave it to native speakers), I would not say it is a regular generic use. Maybe it's just another indication that the labels we use in this domain are not discriminating enough, and that the granularity of terminology for referential status depends on research aims, as was suggested for e.g. universal inventories of semantic roles.
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> Le jeu. 18 juil. 2024, 15:10, Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> a ?crit :
>
> I don?t think so, Randy. It seems to me that all mentioned uses of the English possessive addressee pronoun involve generic reference. Certainly, the list examples are generic. And I can?t think of a single example in which a determiner in a non-generic definite NP could be replaced by the possessive 2nd-person pronoun unless speaker actually intended to present the referent as possessed by the addressee.
>
> I wonder what the etymology of this use is. My hypothesis is that it involves typicality and the speaker leaving it metaphorically to the addressee to fill in whatever the addressee assumes to be the prototype. Thereby apparently implying that the prototype is not controversial between the interlocutors. Which in turn further boosts its presumed typicality.
>
> Best ? Juergen
>
> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> Professor, Department of Linguistics
> University at Buffalo
>
> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> Phone: (716) 645 0127
> Fax: (716) 645 3825
> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edumailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu
>
> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
>
> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
>
> There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
> (Leonard Cohen)
> --
>
>
> From: Randy J. LaPolla <randy.lapolla at gmail.commailto:randy.lapolla at gmail.com>
>
> Date: Thursday, July 18, 2024 at 06:43
> To: Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77 at buffalo.edumailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>
>
> Cc: Marianne Mithun <mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edumailto:mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu>, <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
> Thanks, Nigel, Andrew, Marianne, and J?rgen!
>
> J?rgen, I think the generic sense of the examples you cite might come from the use of ?average? with the phrase, but also might be partially due to the larger context.
>
> Randy
>
> On 18 Jul 2024, at 3:58?AM, Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77 at buffalo.edumailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Dear all ? You?ll find plenty of examples in COCA etc. if you search for the phrase your average:
>
> Your average polite American will look the waiter or waitress in the eye, smile, have?
> Their problem was simply a poor location in the minds of your average theater-goer.
> ?CHopper would have packed a bigger punch and would have traveled much farther than your average motorcycle.
>
> And on and on. But, this use seems to be restricted to a form of generic reference. I don?t think this is about definiteness per se or definiteness in any narrow sense.
>
> Best ? Juergen
>
> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> Professor, Department of Linguistics
> University at Buffalo
>
> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> Phone: (716) 645 0127
> Fax: (716) 645 3825
> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edumailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu
>
> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
>
> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
>
> There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
> (Leonard Cohen)
> --
>
>
> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Marianne Mithun via Lingtyp <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>
> Date: Wednesday, July 17, 2024 at 15:26
> To: Randy J. LaPolla <randy.lapolla at gmail.commailto:randy.lapolla at gmail.com>
>
> Cc: <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
> Dear Misha and Zahra,
>
> Good observation. I was thinking of exactly the kinds of examples Randy mentions second:
>
> What kinds of linguists are there? Well, you?ve got your formalists, your functionalists, your cognitivists, your typologists . . .
>
> Pretty common, I'd say, at least in North America. (Not something I myself would say, of course!)
>
> Marianne
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 11:38?AM Randy J. LaPolla via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
>
> Dear Michael,
> Are you thinking of the listing use of ?your?, as in the following made-up example? (I normally don?t like using made-up examples, but when I tried to search for a natural example the results were overwhelmed by the song ?You?ve got your troubles and I?ve got mine?.)
>
> What kinds of linguists are there? Well, you?ve got your formalists, your functionalists, your cognitivists, your typologists . . .
>
> Here ?your? could be replaced by ?the?, so it does seem to fit what Zahra is looking for.
>
> I have certainly heard this sort of thing, but don?t know if it is restricted to a particular region, though to my ear it sounds better with a Brooklyn accent (as does everything else ;-) ).
>
> Randy
>
>
> On 18 Jul 2024, at 2:10?AM, Michael Daniel via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Zahra,
>
> I think I heard a variety of American English where "your" was used in a very much discourse way, literally on one NP out of three or four. I cannot describe the function properly (probably, supporting contact with the interlocutor) and cannot place it regionally - maybe native speakers will help.
>
> Michael Daniel
>
> --
> ?????? ???????
> ? ??????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???????.
> Michael Daniel
> I condemn my country's aggression in Ukraine.
>
>
> ??, 16 ???. 2024??. ? 14:53, Zahra Etebari Shekarsaraei via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>:
>
> Dear all,
>
> I am preparing a dataset for development of discourse functions in possessive/personal markers cross-linguistically. I am particularly interested in constructions (relevant examples below) where a possessive/personal marker is used not to convey possession or refer to another item, but to denote functions such as definiteness, topicality, emphasis or contrast.
>
> Definiteness
> K?tip tur?an adam? kelmedi. [Karakalpak]
>
> The person he/she has been waiting for did not come.
>
> (Utepovich 2023: 80)
>
>
> Contrast
> Ulizy-vylizy kyk bratjos, pok?i-ez [Udmurt]
> lived-were.3SG two brothers younger.brother-3SG
> kuaner, by?ym-ez uzyr.
> Poor older.brother-3SG rich
> There lived two brothers, the younger one was poor, the older one was rich.
> (Serebrennikov 1963: 133)
>
> So far, I have collected cases from over 60 language varieties spanning Uralic (Ugric, Permic, Mari, Mordvin, Samoyed), Altaic (Turkic, Tungusic, Mongolic), Indo-European (Iranic), Afro-Asiatic (Semitic), and Austronesian (Javanese, Malay) families. If you have encountered similar uses in a language you work on or if you are aware of any lesser-known source on this topic, especially non-English sources, I would be extremely grateful if you could share them with me.
>
> Many thanks for your time!
>
>
> Best wishes,
> Zahra
>
>
> References:
>
> Serebrennikov, Boris A. 1963. Istoriceskaja Morfologija Permskix Jazykov [Historical morphology of the Permic languages]. Moscow: Izdate?stvo AN SSSR.
>
> Utepovich, Bekbergenov H. 2023. Semantic peculiarities of the possessive affixes in the Karakalpak language and their equivalents in English. Journal of Advanced Linguistic Studies. 10(2). 64-82.
>
>
>
> Zahra Etebari
> Postdoctoral researcher
> Department of Linguistics and Philology
> Uppsala University
> Thunbergsv?gen 3Hhttps://www.google.com/maps/search/Thunbergsvägen+3H?entry=gmail&source=g, Box 635
>
> 75126 Uppsala, Sweden
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> N?r du har kontakt med oss p? Uppsala universitet med e-post s? inneb?r det att vi behandlar dina personuppgifter. F?r att l?sa mer om hur vi g?r det kan du l?sa h?r: http://www.uu.se/om-uu/dataskydd-personuppgifter/
>
> E-mailing Uppsala University means that we will process your personal data. For more information on how this is performed, please read here: http://www.uu.se/en/about-uu/data-protection-policy
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20240719/571cdbc3/attachment-0001.htm
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 13:56:42 +0000
> From: Juergen Bohnemeyer jb77 at buffalo.edu
>
> To: Michael Daniel misha.daniel at gmail.com
>
> Cc: "LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org"
>
> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
> Message-ID:
> SJ0PR15MB469698B2DCABACF18D4F4550DDAD2 at SJ0PR15MB4696.namprd15.prod.outlook.com
>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> PS (And I know we should probably give this topic a rest soon, lest it becomes like the 100th balloon pop ?) To show that this use of the 2nd person pronoun is infelicitous in reference to specific events and individuals:
>
> ?I popped one thousand balloons yesterday. The/#your 100th pop was / not much fun / tedious.?
>
> Best ? Juergen
>
> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> Professor, Department of Linguistics
> University at Buffalo
>
> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> Phone: (716) 645 0127
> Fax: (716) 645 3825
> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edumailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu
>
> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
>
> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
>
> There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
> (Leonard Cohen)
> --
>
>
> From: Lingtyp lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org on behalf of Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> Date: Friday, July 19, 2024 at 09:13
> To: Michael Daniel misha.daniel at gmail.com
>
> Cc: LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
> Dear Michael ? Nicely spotted! With the caveat that I?m not an L1 speaker either: The writer here is not talking about an actual event, but an imagined one. I agree that this isn?t exactly generic, but it ?could as well? be, in the sense that it?s implied that any sequence of 100 balloon pops would become tedious. IDK to what extent empathy is a factor conditioning the use of the addressee pronoun here. Keep in mind that the person to be empathized with here would be the cleaning personal, not the referent of the addressee pronoun, who is the generic reader. But perhaps the reader is invited to imagine themselves in the position of the cleaners? ? Best ? Juergen
>
> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> Professor, Department of Linguistics
> University at Buffalo
>
> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> Phone: (716) 645 0127
> Fax: (716) 645 3825
> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edumailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu
>
> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
>
> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
>
> There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
> (Leonard Cohen)
> --
>
>
> From: Michael Daniel misha.daniel at gmail.com
>
> Date: Friday, July 19, 2024 at 02:01
> To: Juergen Bohnemeyer jb77 at buffalo.edu
>
> Cc: Randy J. LaPolla randy.lapolla at gmail.com, LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
>
> Dear all,
>
> I cannot help sharing an example of use that just caught my eye on BBC web site. This is not a list usage, and it could even be replaced by the (could it not?). It is not your average generic use:
>
> An avalanche of balloons is a great visual moment. But you have to feel for the cleaners. Right now I'm watching officials walk row-by-row on the arena floor with long sticks they are using to burst every balloon. It sounds fun, but maybe not after your 100th pop.
>
> Apart from empathy effect (potentially, I leave it to native speakers), I would not say it is a regular generic use. Maybe it's just another indication that the labels we use in this domain are not discriminating enough, and that the granularity of terminology for referential status depends on research aims, as was suggested for e.g. universal inventories of semantic roles.
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> Le jeu. 18 juil. 2024, 15:10, Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> a ?crit :
>
> I don?t think so, Randy. It seems to me that all mentioned uses of the English possessive addressee pronoun involve generic reference. Certainly, the list examples are generic. And I can?t think of a single example in which a determiner in a non-generic definite NP could be replaced by the possessive 2nd-person pronoun unless speaker actually intended to present the referent as possessed by the addressee.
>
> I wonder what the etymology of this use is. My hypothesis is that it involves typicality and the speaker leaving it metaphorically to the addressee to fill in whatever the addressee assumes to be the prototype. Thereby apparently implying that the prototype is not controversial between the interlocutors. Which in turn further boosts its presumed typicality.
>
> Best ? Juergen
>
> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> Professor, Department of Linguistics
> University at Buffalo
>
> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> Phone: (716) 645 0127
> Fax: (716) 645 3825
> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edumailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu
>
> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
>
> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
>
> There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
> (Leonard Cohen)
> --
>
>
> From: Randy J. LaPolla <randy.lapolla at gmail.commailto:randy.lapolla at gmail.com>
>
> Date: Thursday, July 18, 2024 at 06:43
> To: Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77 at buffalo.edumailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>
>
> Cc: Marianne Mithun <mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edumailto:mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu>, <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
> Thanks, Nigel, Andrew, Marianne, and J?rgen!
>
> J?rgen, I think the generic sense of the examples you cite might come from the use of ?average? with the phrase, but also might be partially due to the larger context.
>
> Randy
>
> On 18 Jul 2024, at 3:58?AM, Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77 at buffalo.edumailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Dear all ? You?ll find plenty of examples in COCA etc. if you search for the phrase your average:
>
> Your average polite American will look the waiter or waitress in the eye, smile, have?
> Their problem was simply a poor location in the minds of your average theater-goer.
> ?CHopper would have packed a bigger punch and would have traveled much farther than your average motorcycle.
>
> And on and on. But, this use seems to be restricted to a form of generic reference. I don?t think this is about definiteness per se or definiteness in any narrow sense.
>
> Best ? Juergen
>
> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> Professor, Department of Linguistics
> University at Buffalo
>
> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> Phone: (716) 645 0127
> Fax: (716) 645 3825
> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edumailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu
>
> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
>
> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
>
> There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
> (Leonard Cohen)
> --
>
>
> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Marianne Mithun via Lingtyp <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>
> Date: Wednesday, July 17, 2024 at 15:26
> To: Randy J. LaPolla <randy.lapolla at gmail.commailto:randy.lapolla at gmail.com>
>
> Cc: <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
> Dear Misha and Zahra,
>
> Good observation. I was thinking of exactly the kinds of examples Randy mentions second:
>
> What kinds of linguists are there? Well, you?ve got your formalists, your functionalists, your cognitivists, your typologists . . .
>
> Pretty common, I'd say, at least in North America. (Not something I myself would say, of course!)
>
> Marianne
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 11:38?AM Randy J. LaPolla via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
>
> Dear Michael,
> Are you thinking of the listing use of ?your?, as in the following made-up example? (I normally don?t like using made-up examples, but when I tried to search for a natural example the results were overwhelmed by the song ?You?ve got your troubles and I?ve got mine?.)
>
> What kinds of linguists are there? Well, you?ve got your formalists, your functionalists, your cognitivists, your typologists . . .
>
> Here ?your? could be replaced by ?the?, so it does seem to fit what Zahra is looking for.
>
> I have certainly heard this sort of thing, but don?t know if it is restricted to a particular region, though to my ear it sounds better with a Brooklyn accent (as does everything else ;-) ).
>
> Randy
>
>
> On 18 Jul 2024, at 2:10?AM, Michael Daniel via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Zahra,
>
> I think I heard a variety of American English where "your" was used in a very much discourse way, literally on one NP out of three or four. I cannot describe the function properly (probably, supporting contact with the interlocutor) and cannot place it regionally - maybe native speakers will help.
>
> Michael Daniel
>
> --
> ?????? ???????
> ? ??????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???????.
> Michael Daniel
> I condemn my country's aggression in Ukraine.
>
>
> ??, 16 ???. 2024??. ? 14:53, Zahra Etebari Shekarsaraei via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>:
>
> Dear all,
>
> I am preparing a dataset for development of discourse functions in possessive/personal markers cross-linguistically. I am particularly interested in constructions (relevant examples below) where a possessive/personal marker is used not to convey possession or refer to another item, but to denote functions such as definiteness, topicality, emphasis or contrast.
>
> Definiteness
> K?tip tur?an adam? kelmedi. [Karakalpak]
>
> The person he/she has been waiting for did not come.
>
> (Utepovich 2023: 80)
>
>
> Contrast
> Ulizy-vylizy kyk bratjos, pok?i-ez [Udmurt]
> lived-were.3SG two brothers younger.brother-3SG
> kuaner, by?ym-ez uzyr.
> Poor older.brother-3SG rich
> There lived two brothers, the younger one was poor, the older one was rich.
> (Serebrennikov 1963: 133)
>
> So far, I have collected cases from over 60 language varieties spanning Uralic (Ugric, Permic, Mari, Mordvin, Samoyed), Altaic (Turkic, Tungusic, Mongolic), Indo-European (Iranic), Afro-Asiatic (Semitic), and Austronesian (Javanese, Malay) families. If you have encountered similar uses in a language you work on or if you are aware of any lesser-known source on this topic, especially non-English sources, I would be extremely grateful if you could share them with me.
>
> Many thanks for your time!
>
>
> Best wishes,
> Zahra
>
>
> References:
>
> Serebrennikov, Boris A. 1963. Istoriceskaja Morfologija Permskix Jazykov [Historical morphology of the Permic languages]. Moscow: Izdate?stvo AN SSSR.
>
> Utepovich, Bekbergenov H. 2023. Semantic peculiarities of the possessive affixes in the Karakalpak language and their equivalents in English. Journal of Advanced Linguistic Studies. 10(2). 64-82.
>
>
>
> Zahra Etebari
> Postdoctoral researcher
> Department of Linguistics and Philology
> Uppsala University
> Thunbergsv?gen 3Hhttps://www.google.com/maps/search/Thunbergsvägen+3H?entry=gmail&source=g, Box 635
>
> 75126 Uppsala, Sweden
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> N?r du har kontakt med oss p? Uppsala universitet med e-post s? inneb?r det att vi behandlar dina personuppgifter. F?r att l?sa mer om hur vi g?r det kan du l?sa h?r: http://www.uu.se/om-uu/dataskydd-personuppgifter/
>
> E-mailing Uppsala University means that we will process your personal data. For more information on how this is performed, please read here: http://www.uu.se/en/about-uu/data-protection-policy
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.orgmailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20240719/13fed3b1/attachment-0001.htm
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 10:06:09 -0700
> From: Marianne Mithun mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu
>
> To: Juergen Bohnemeyer jb77 at buffalo.edu
>
> Cc: Michael Daniel misha.daniel at gmail.com,
>
> "LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org"
>
> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
> Message-ID:
> CAKvd2fB7h1K28Mag7hH68NAOoQZHVCgwECWyq=5TG3s=J==5fA at mail.gmail.com
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear Misha,
>
> Love your 'it's not your average generic use'!
>
> I think you've hit it with the empathetic note. Don't we feel a bit of a
> twinge when someone uses it with us in the generic sense but for something
> or someone we definitely do not feel empathy with? And the 'your 100th pop'
> definitely feels empathetic to me.
>
> Marianne
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 6:13?AM Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp <
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
>
> > Dear Michael ? Nicely spotted! With the caveat that I?m not an L1 speaker
> > either: The writer here is not talking about an actual event, but an
> > imagined one. I agree that this isn?t exactly generic, but it ?could as
> > well? be, in the sense that it?s implied that any sequence of 100 balloon
> > pops would become tedious. IDK to what extent empathy is a factor
> > conditioning the use of the addressee pronoun here. Keep in mind that the
> > person to be empathized with here would be the cleaning personal, not the
> > referent of the addressee pronoun, who is the generic reader. But perhaps
> > the reader is invited to imagine themselves in the position of the
> > cleaners? ? Best ? Juergen
> >
> > Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> > Professor, Department of Linguistics
> > University at Buffalo
> >
> > Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> > Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> > Phone: (716) 645 0127
> > Fax: (716) 645 3825
> > Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu
> > Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
> >
> > Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585
> > 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
> >
> > There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
> > (Leonard Cohen)
> >
> > --
> >
> > *From: *Michael Daniel misha.daniel at gmail.com
> > *Date: *Friday, July 19, 2024 at 02:01
> > *To: *Juergen Bohnemeyer jb77 at buffalo.edu
> > *Cc: *Randy J. LaPolla randy.lapolla at gmail.com, <
> > LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > I cannot help sharing an example of use that just caught my eye on BBC web
> > site. This is not a list usage, and it could even be replaced by the (could
> > it not?). It is not your average generic use:
> >
> > An avalanche of balloons is a great visual moment. But you have to feel
> > for the cleaners. Right now I'm watching officials walk row-by-row on the
> > arena floor with long sticks they are using to burst every balloon. It
> > sounds fun, but maybe not after your 100th pop.
> >
> > Apart from empathy effect (potentially, I leave it to native speakers), I
> > would not say it is a regular generic use. Maybe it's just another
> > indication that the labels we use in this domain are not discriminating
> > enough, and that the granularity of terminology for referential status
> > depends on research aims, as was suggested for e.g. universal inventories
> > of semantic roles.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > Le jeu. 18 juil. 2024, 15:10, Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp <
> > lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> a ?crit :
> >
> > I don?t think so, Randy. It seems to me that all mentioned uses of the
> > English possessive addressee pronoun involve generic reference. Certainly,
> > the list examples are generic. And I can?t think of a single example in
> > which a determiner in a non-generic definite NP could be replaced by the
> > possessive 2nd-person pronoun unless speaker actually intended to present
> > the referent as possessed by the addressee.
> >
> > I wonder what the etymology of this use is. My hypothesis is that it
> > involves typicality and the speaker leaving it metaphorically to the
> > addressee to fill in whatever the addressee assumes to be the prototype.
> > Thereby apparently implying that the prototype is not controversial between
> > the interlocutors. Which in turn further boosts its presumed typicality.
> >
> > Best ? Juergen
> >
> > Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> > Professor, Department of Linguistics
> > University at Buffalo
> >
> > Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> > Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> > Phone: (716) 645 0127
> > Fax: (716) 645 3825
> > Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu
> > Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
> >
> > Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585
> > 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
> >
> > There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
> > (Leonard Cohen)
> >
> > --
> >
> > *From: *Randy J. LaPolla randy.lapolla at gmail.com
> > *Date: *Thursday, July 18, 2024 at 06:43
> > *To: *Juergen Bohnemeyer jb77 at buffalo.edu
> > *Cc: *Marianne Mithun mithun at linguistics.ucsb.edu, <
> > LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
> >
> > Thanks, Nigel, Andrew, Marianne, and J?rgen!
> >
> > J?rgen, I think the generic sense of the examples you cite might come from
> > the use of ?average? with the phrase, but also might be partially due to
> > the larger context.
> >
> > Randy
> >
> > On 18 Jul 2024, at 3:58?AM, Juergen Bohnemeyer jb77 at buffalo.edu wrote:
> >
> > Dear all ? You?ll find plenty of examples in COCA etc. if you search for
> > the phrase your average:
> >
> > Your average polite American will look the waiter or waitress in the
> > eye, smile, have?
> >
> > Their problem was simply a poor location in the minds of your average
> > theater-goer.
> >
> > ?CHopper would have packed a bigger punch and would have traveled much
> > farther than your average motorcycle.
> >
> > And on and on. But, this use seems to be restricted to a form of generic
> > reference. I don?t think this is about definiteness per se or definiteness
> > in any narrow sense.
> >
> > Best ? Juergen
> >
> > Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> > Professor, Department of Linguistics
> > University at Buffalo
> >
> > Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> > Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> > Phone: (716) 645 0127
> > Fax: (716) 645 3825
> > Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu
> > Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
> >
> > Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585
> > 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
> >
> > There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
> > (Leonard Cohen)
> >
> > --
> >
> > *From: *Lingtyp lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org on behalf of
> > Marianne Mithun via Lingtyp LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > *Date: *Wednesday, July 17, 2024 at 15:26
> > *To: *Randy J. LaPolla randy.lapolla at gmail.com
> > *Cc: *LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers
> >
> > Dear Misha and Zahra,
> >
> > Good observation. I was thinking of exactly the kinds of examples Randy
> > mentions second:
> >
> > What kinds of linguists are there? Well, you?ve got your formalists, your
> > functionalists, your cognitivists, your typologists . . .
> >
> > Pretty common, I'd say, at least in North America. (Not something I myself
> > would say, of course!)
> >
> > Marianne
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 11:38?AM Randy J. LaPolla via Lingtyp <
> > lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Michael,
> >
> > Are you thinking of the listing use of ?your?, as in the following made-up
> > example? (I normally don?t like using made-up examples, but when I tried to
> > search for a natural example the results were overwhelmed by the song
> > ?You?ve got your troubles and I?ve got mine?.)
> >
> > What kinds of linguists are there? Well, you?ve got your formalists, your
> > functionalists, your cognitivists, your typologists . . .
> >
> > Here ?your? could be replaced by ?the?, so it does seem to fit what Zahra
> > is looking for.
> >
> > I have certainly heard this sort of thing, but don?t know if it is
> > restricted to a particular region, though to my ear it sounds better with a
> > Brooklyn accent (as does everything else ;-) ).
> >
> > Randy
> >
> > On 18 Jul 2024, at 2:10?AM, Michael Daniel via Lingtyp <
> > lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Zahra,
> >
> > I think I heard a variety of American English where "your" was used in a
> > very much discourse way, literally on one NP out of three or four. I cannot
> > describe the function properly (probably, supporting contact with the
> > interlocutor) and cannot place it regionally - maybe native speakers will
> > help.
> >
> > Michael Daniel
> >
> > --
> >
> > ?????? ???????
> >
> > ? ??????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???????.
> >
> > Michael Daniel
> >
> > I condemn my country's aggression in Ukraine.
> >
> > ??, 16 ???. 2024??. ? 14:53, Zahra Etebari Shekarsaraei via Lingtyp <
> > lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>:
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > I am preparing a dataset for development of discourse functions in
> > possessive/personal markers cross-linguistically. I am particularly
> > interested in constructions (relevant examples below) where a
> > possessive/personal marker is used not to convey possession or refer to
> > another item, but to denote functions such as definiteness, topicality,
> > emphasis or contrast.
> >
> > Definiteness
> >
> > K?tip tur?an adam? kelmedi.
> > [Karakalpak]
> >
> > The person he/she has been waiting for did not come.
> >
> > (Utepovich 2023: 80)
> >
> > Contrast
> >
> > Ulizy-vylizy kyk bratjos,
> > pok?i-ez [Udmurt]
> >
> > lived-were.3SG two
> > brothers * younger.brother-3SG*
> >
> > kuaner, by*?*ym-ez
> > uzyr.
> >
> > Poor older.brother-3SG
> > rich
> >
> > There lived two brothers, the younger one was poor, the older
> > one was rich.
> >
> > (Serebrennikov 1963: 133)
> >
> > So far, I have collected cases from over 60 language varieties spanning
> > Uralic (Ugric, Permic, Mari, Mordvin, Samoyed), Altaic (Turkic, Tungusic,
> > Mongolic), Indo-European (Iranic), Afro-Asiatic (Semitic), and Austronesian
> > (Javanese, Malay) families. If you have encountered similar uses in a
> > language you work on or if you are aware of any lesser-known source on this
> > topic, especially non-English sources, I would be extremely grateful if you
> > could share them with me.
> >
> > Many thanks for your time!
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Zahra
> >
> > References:
> >
> > Serebrennikov, Boris A. 1963. Istoriceskaja Morfologija Permskix Jazykov
> > [Historical morphology of the Permic languages]. Moscow: Izdate?stvo AN
> > SSSR.
> >
> > Utepovich, Bekbergenov H. 2023. Semantic peculiarities of the possessive
> > affixes in the Karakalpak language and their equivalents in English. Journal
> > of Advanced Linguistic Studies. 10(2). 64-82.
> >
> > Zahra Etebari
> >
> > Postdoctoral researcher
> >
> > Department of Linguistics and Philology
> >
> > Uppsala University
> >
> > Thunbergsv?gen 3H
> > https://www.google.com/maps/search/Thunbergsvägen+3H?entry=gmail&source=g,
> > Box 635
> >
> > 75126 Uppsala, Sweden
> >
> > N?r du har kontakt med oss p? Uppsala universitet med e-post s? inneb?r
> > det att vi behandlar dina personuppgifter. F?r att l?sa mer om hur vi g?r
> > det kan du l?sa h?r: http://www.uu.se/om-uu/dataskydd-personuppgifter/
> >
> > E-mailing Uppsala University means that we will process your personal
> > data. For more information on how this is performed, please read here:
> > http://www.uu.se/en/about-uu/data-protection-policy
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20240719/002308fe/attachment.htm
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Lingtyp Digest, Vol 118, Issue 26
> ****************************************
More information about the Lingtyp
mailing list