[Lingtyp] Verbs meaning 'and, with'
Cat Butz
Cat.Butz at hhu.de
Mon Nov 25 14:14:00 UTC 2024
Thank you Eline, I was actually going to point out that as can be seen
in my Dalkalaen example, the "verby" instance of kyurine has subject
agreement and TAM marking, while the "andy" instance lacks them, so it
might be better to analyze the "andy" instances as grammaticalized
conjunctions rather than verbs (though verbs can sometimes occur without
SAgr and TAM marking in Dalkalaen).
Warmest,
---
Cat Butz (she)
HHU Düsseldorf
General Linguistics
Am 25/11/2024 12:21, schrieb Eline Visser via Lingtyp:
> Uruangnirin (Austronesian) has a verb ora 'follow; join; bring' but
> also 'be with' that is grammaticalizing into a conjunction 'and; with'.
> Older/conservative speakers inflect this verb with a subject prefix in
> constructions like "me and my children", while others have
> grammaticalized it with a fixed 3rd person subject prefix regardless of
> the subject of the clause.
>
> Email me if you want more details.
>
>
> On Monday, November 25th, 2024 at 5:58 AM,
> lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Verbs meaning 'and, with' (Jose Antonio Jodar Sanchez)
>> 2. Re: Verbs meaning 'and, with' (NAM Deokhyun)
>> 3. Re: Verbs meaning 'and, with' (David Gil)
>> 4. Re: Verbs meaning 'and, with' (Zygmunt Frajzyngier)
>> 5. Language learning by machines (LLMs) and by humans (L1)
>> (results) (Stela Manova)
>> 6. Re: Language learning by machines (LLMs) and by humans (L1)
>> (results) (Stela Manova)
>> 7. Re: Verbs meaning 'and, with' (Daniel Ross)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2024 14:52:17 +0100
>> From: Jose Antonio Jodar Sanchez jjodarsa at buffalo.edu
>>
>> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> Subject: [Lingtyp] Verbs meaning 'and, with'
>> Message-ID:
>> CAFRk_keJ5HNuYJOTSjeE5AKXewNXdhMsbQMd7uy_qfO-9d9aiQ at mail.gmail.com
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> My colleague Andrey Drinfeld and I are looking at a group of verbs
>> meaning
>> 'and, with' in a family of Papuan languages, the Torricelli family.
>> Instead
>> of using linking devices such as conjunctions (e.g. English 'and') or
>> affixes/clitics (e.g. Amharic -?m) to join two noun phrases, these
>> languages use verbs which have pronominal affixes for either subject,
>> object, or both. Examples from Walman and Yeri can be found in (1) and
>> (2)
>> respectively, with the 'and' verb in bold:
>>
>> (1) [Runon n-a-? chu]
>> y-an y-ayako-?
>> klay-poch ...
>> 3SG.M 3SG.M.SUBJ-and-3SG.F.OBJ wife 3PL.SUBJ-be.at
>> 3PL.SUBJ-make-3SG.F.OBJ taro-porridge ...
>> ?[He and his wife] were making taro porridge ...? (Brown and Dryer,
>> 2008: 529)
>>
>> (2) Hem teipa dore m-nobia [Sila w-od?-?
>> Lagosi].
>> 1sg then get.up 1sg-talk.R Sila 3SG.F-and.R-SG.F
>> Lagosi
>> ?I got up and told [Sila and Lagosi].? (Wilson, 2017: 333)
>>
>> We have been operating under the assumption that this phenomenon is
>> not
>> attested outside the Torricelli family and a few Austronesian
>> languages
>> (such as Lamaholot), but we do not have concrete evidence one way or
>> the
>> other, and are considering the possibility that there may be other
>> attestations of such a phenomenon elsewhere that have not gotten into
>> the
>> literature on this topic. We are wondering if anyone is aware of such
>> a
>> phenomenon being attested in other language families and parts of the
>> world.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Jose.
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2024 23:47:16 +0900
>> From: NAM Deokhyun devon_coast373 at toki.waseda.jp
>>
>> To: Jose Antonio Jodar Sanchez jjodarsa at buffalo.edu
>>
>> Cc: "LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Verbs meaning 'and, with'
>> Message-ID:
>> CAJaYrhHPy+nnYTHLeBLHHCgjEV+pTSe6wSsQTA5gwwHKa1747A at mail.gmail.com
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Dear Jose Antonio Jodar Sanchez,
>>
>> As I'm not sure to what extent it would be relevant, Korean uses as
>> one of
>> its strategies to join noun phrases a converbal form of the verb ha-ta
>> 'to do', 'to say'. Korean doesn't have pronominal affixes in the first
>> place. Examples (Yale Romanization):
>>
>> a. pap ha-ko koki-ka masiss-ta
>> rice do-CNV meat-NOM tasty-DECL
>> 'The rice and meat are tasty.'
>> b. pap ha-ko koki-lul mek-ess-ta
>> rice do-CNV meat-ACC eat-PST-DECL
>> '(I) ate rice and meat.'
>>
>> Best,
>> Dokyon (Deokhyun Nam)
>>
>> 2024?11?24?(?) 22:53 Jose Antonio Jodar Sanchez via Lingtyp <
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>:
>>
>> > Dear all,
>> >
>> > My colleague Andrey Drinfeld and I are looking at a group of verbs meaning
>> > 'and, with' in a family of Papuan languages, the Torricelli family. Instead
>> > of using linking devices such as conjunctions (e.g. English 'and') or
>> > affixes/clitics (e.g. Amharic -?m) to join two noun phrases, these
>> > languages use verbs which have pronominal affixes for either subject,
>> > object, or both. Examples from Walman and Yeri can be found in (1) and (2)
>> > respectively, with the 'and' verb in bold:
>> >
>> > (1) [Runon n-a-? chu]
>> > y-an y-ayako-?
>> > klay-poch ...
>> > 3SG.M 3SG.M.SUBJ-and-3SG.F.OBJ wife 3PL.SUBJ-be.at
>> > 3PL.SUBJ-make-3SG.F.OBJ taro-porridge ...
>> > ?[He and his wife] were making taro porridge ...? (Brown and Dryer,
>> > 2008: 529)
>> >
>> > (2) Hem teipa dore m-nobia [Sila w-od?-?
>> > Lagosi].
>> > 1sg then get.up 1sg-talk.R Sila
>> > 3SG.F-and.R-SG.F Lagosi
>> > ?I got up and told [Sila and Lagosi].? (Wilson, 2017: 333)
>> >
>> > We have been operating under the assumption that this phenomenon is not
>> > attested outside the Torricelli family and a few Austronesian languages
>> > (such as Lamaholot), but we do not have concrete evidence one way or the
>> > other, and are considering the possibility that there may be other
>> > attestations of such a phenomenon elsewhere that have not gotten into the
>> > literature on this topic. We are wondering if anyone is aware of such a
>> > phenomenon being attested in other language families and parts of the world.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Jose.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Lingtyp mailing list
>> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2024 16:55:11 +0200
>> From: David Gil dapiiiiit at gmail.com
>>
>> To: Jose Antonio Jodar Sanchez jjodarsa at buffalo.edu
>>
>> Cc: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Verbs meaning 'and, with'
>> Message-ID:
>> CAEoKyV_doX23JdNabuq9g70BZSW9=U4wvFaUZZ_u=+wmw11KVQ at mail.gmail.com
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Dear Jose, all,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have written about "verbal coordinations" in the Yuman language
>> Maricopa
>> (Gil 1991).
>>
>>
>>
>> Another relevant case might be the Riau Indonesian coordinator *sama
>> *(Gil
>> 2004). Under my analysis of Riau Indonesian there is no noun/verb
>> distinction; however, if you wish to impose such a distinction, then
>> many
>> other usages of sama would probably also be described as "verbal".
>>
>>
>>
>> Gil, David (1991) "Aristotle Goes to Arizona, And Finds a Language
>> without
>> And", in D. Zaefferer ed., Semantic Universals and Universal
>> Semantics,
>> Foris Press, Berlin, 96-130.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gil, David (2004) "Riau Indonesian sama, Explorations in
>> Macrofunctionality", in M. Haspelmath ed., Coordinating Constructions,
>> Typological Studies in Language 58, John Benjamins, Amsterdam,
>> 371-424.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>>
>> David
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 24, 2024 at 3:53?PM Jose Antonio Jodar Sanchez via Lingtyp
>> <
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Dear all,
>> >
>> > My colleague Andrey Drinfeld and I are looking at a group of verbs meaning
>> > 'and, with' in a family of Papuan languages, the Torricelli family. Instead
>> > of using linking devices such as conjunctions (e.g. English 'and') or
>> > affixes/clitics (e.g. Amharic -?m) to join two noun phrases, these
>> > languages use verbs which have pronominal affixes for either subject,
>> > object, or both. Examples from Walman and Yeri can be found in (1) and (2)
>> > respectively, with the 'and' verb in bold:
>> >
>> > (1) [Runon n-a-? chu]
>> > y-an y-ayako-?
>> > klay-poch ...
>> > 3SG.M 3SG.M.SUBJ-and-3SG.F.OBJ wife 3PL.SUBJ-be.at
>> > 3PL.SUBJ-make-3SG.F.OBJ taro-porridge ...
>> > ?[He and his wife] were making taro porridge ...? (Brown and Dryer,
>> > 2008: 529)
>> >
>> > (2) Hem teipa dore m-nobia [Sila w-od?-?
>> > Lagosi].
>> > 1sg then get.up 1sg-talk.R Sila
>> > 3SG.F-and.R-SG.F Lagosi
>> > ?I got up and told [Sila and Lagosi].? (Wilson, 2017: 333)
>> >
>> > We have been operating under the assumption that this phenomenon is not
>> > attested outside the Torricelli family and a few Austronesian languages
>> > (such as Lamaholot), but we do not have concrete evidence one way or the
>> > other, and are considering the possibility that there may be other
>> > attestations of such a phenomenon elsewhere that have not gotten into the
>> > literature on this topic. We are wondering if anyone is aware of such a
>> > phenomenon being attested in other language families and parts of the world.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Jose.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Lingtyp mailing list
>> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> David Gil
>>
>> Senior Scientist (Associate)
>> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
>> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
>> Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
>>
>> Email: dapiiiiit at gmail.com
>> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
>> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2024 16:54:54 +0000
>> From: Zygmunt Frajzyngier zygmunt.frajzyngier at colorado.edu
>>
>> To: Jose Antonio Jodar Sanchez jjodarsa at buffalo.edu,
>>
>> "LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Verbs meaning 'and, with'
>> Message-ID:
>> CH0PR03MB60510DB84EFB4BB0BFD1BC8F942D2 at CH0PR03MB6051.namprd03.prod.outlook.com
>>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Dear Jose Anonio Jodar,
>> You may find this paper useful for your research.
>> In my Grammar of Gidar (2008) you fill find evidence of the verb ?go?
>> serving as clausal conjunction.
>>
>> Frajzyngier, Zygmunt. 2005. Grammaticalization of phrasal and clausal
>> relators. Afrika und ?bersee, 88, 79-102.
>>
>> All best,
>> Zygmunt
>>
>> Zygmunt Frajzyngier
>> Emeritus Professor of Linguistics
>> University of Colorado
>> www.colorado.edu>linguistics>Zygmunt_frajzyngier
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Lingtyp lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org on behalf of
>> Jose Antonio Jodar Sanchez via Lingtyp
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>
>> Date: Sunday, November 24, 2024 at 6:53 AM
>> To: LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>
>> Subject: [Lingtyp] Verbs meaning 'and, with'
>> [External email - use caution]
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> My colleague Andrey Drinfeld and I are looking at a group of verbs
>> meaning 'and, with' in a family of Papuan languages, the Torricelli
>> family. Instead of using linking devices such as conjunctions (e.g.
>> English 'and') or affixes/clitics (e.g. Amharic -?m) to join two noun
>> phrases, these languages use verbs which have pronominal affixes for
>> either subject, object, or both. Examples from Walman and Yeri can be
>> found in (1) and (2) respectively, with the 'and' verb in bold:
>>
>> (1) [Runon n-a-? chu] y-an y-ayako-?? klay-poch ...
>> 3SG.M 3SG.M.SUBJ-and-3SG.F.OBJ wife
>> 3PL.SUBJ-be.athttp://3pl.subj-be.at/ 3PL.SUBJ-make-3SG.F.OBJ
>> taro-porridge ...
>>
>> ?[He and his wife] were making taro porridge ...? (Brown and Dryer,
>> 2008: 529)
>>
>> (2) Hem teipa dore m-nobia [Sila w-od?-? Lagosi].
>> 1sg then get.up 1sg-talk.R Sila 3SG.F-and.R-SG.F Lagosi
>> ?I got up and told [Sila and Lagosi].? (Wilson, 2017: 333)
>>
>> We have been operating under the assumption that this phenomenon is
>> not attested outside the Torricelli family and a few Austronesian
>> languages (such as Lamaholot), but we do not have concrete evidence
>> one way or the other, and are considering the possibility that there
>> may be other attestations of such a phenomenon elsewhere that have not
>> gotten into the literature on this topic. We are wondering if anyone
>> is aware of such a phenomenon being attested in other language
>> families and parts of the world.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Jose.
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20241124/c4d3badb/attachment-0001.htm
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2024 20:59:56 +0000
>> From: Stela Manova manova.stela at gmail.com
>>
>> To: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>
>> Subject: [Lingtyp] Language learning by machines (LLMs) and by humans
>> (L1) (results)
>> Message-ID:
>> SJ2P220MB1834D69CEBCD622AC5E597C6A72D2 at SJ2P220MB1834.NAMP220.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM
>>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> At the end of August, I asked for help with L1 English data for a
>> comparison of language learning by LLMs and by humans. I promised to
>> post the results of the comparison and that is why I am writing now.
>>
>> I changed my initial strategy and instead of focusing on the first 100
>> words in L1 English and checking whether they are part of the
>> ChatGPT?s vocabulary, I compared the first component of ChatGPT, the
>> tokenizer, with its logical parallel, the early stages of L1. The
>> paper ?Machine learning versus human learning: Basic units and
>> form-meaning mapping? can be accessed at:
>> https://lingbuzz.net/lingbuzz/008548; a more detailed presentation of
>> tokenization in ?ChatGPT and linguistic theory, with a focus on
>> morphology?, available at: https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/008600. Both
>> papers are submitted for inclusion in edited collections and are
>> currently under review.
>>
>> Finally, I would like to thank Arnold Zwicky for the help with my L1
>> English query and Eve Clark for the response.
>>
>> Best,
>> Stela
>>
>> *********************
>> Dr. Stela MANOVA
>> [cid:8f89f40b-cbd8-45a1-8bba-c90f5e567169]
>> Email addresses:
>> manova at gaussaiglobal.com
>> manova.stela at gmail.com
>>
>> Websites:
>> https://www.gaussaiglobal.com
>> https://sites.google.com/view/stelamanova
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Arnold Zwicky arnold.zwicky at gmail.com
>>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2024 12:25 AM
>> To: Stela Manova manova.stela at gmail.com; Linguistic Linguistic
>> Typology lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] L1 English
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 9, 2024, at 12:21 PM, Stela Manova via Lingtyp lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org wrote:
>> >
>> > I am writing to ask for your help with the following issue. I have been working on the relationship between LLMs and linguistic theory and now it is time to check how language acquisition happens in humans and machines. I am therefore looking for the very first, at least, 100 words of children with L1 English (in the ideal case, data should come from different varieties of the language). ... Please feel free to forward the query to linguists that are not on the list.
>>
>>
>> I appealed to my old friend and illustrious colleague Eve Clark, and
>> here are her musings, for you to use as you wish. Please don't engage
>> with me on this (this is not at all my field) or with EC (who just
>> gave a quick reaction).
>>
>> ,,,,,
>>
>> We know a lot about the first 100+ words children produce (their early
>> comprehension isn?t as well documented) but parental reports can be
>> somewhat unreliable at times. All this is in the CHILDES Archive, of
>> course, with many further analyses of the CDI data also in Michael
>> Frank?s recent book:
>>
>> Frank, M. C., Braginsky, Mika; Yurovsky, Daniel, & Marchman, Virginia
>> A. 2021. Variability and Consistency in Early Language Learning: The
>> Wordbank project. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press.
>>
>> Another source I?d recommend is an article by Warstadt & Bowman:
>>
>> Warstadt, Alex, & Bowman, Samuel R. 2022. What artificial neural
>> networks can tell us about human language acquisition. In S. Lappin &
>> J.-P. Bernardy (eds.), Algebraic Structures in Natural Language (pp.
>> 17-29). London: CRC Press.
>> (They compare the actual amounts of input required for different
>> models to learn from, compared to human infants?)
>>
>> My general impression is that no-one in the LLM ?field? knows anything
>> about human language acquisition, certainly not the details for early
>> perception, phonological sequences, word identification/recognition,
>> word combination, speech acts, etc.etc. For a recent taste of this,
>> see the fourth edition of
>> Clark, E. V. 2024. First Language Acquisition (Cambridge UP) for all
>> that will need to be accounted for?
>> .....
>>
>> Arnold
>>
>>
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2024 23:20:27 +0000
>> From: Stela Manova manova.stela at gmail.com
>>
>> To: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Language learning by machines (LLMs) and by
>> humans (L1) (results)
>> Message-ID:
>> SJ2P220MB183474C9391785EFDF969A97A72D2 at SJ2P220MB1834.NAMP220.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM
>>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>> The direct link to ?Machine learning versus human learning: Basic
>> units and form-meaning mapping? is without a semicolon, i.e.:
>> https://lingbuzz.net/lingbuzz/008548
>> The lingtyp email client merged the link with the punctuation after
>> it. Apologies for the inconvenience.
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Stela Manova manova.stela at gmail.com
>>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2024 9:59 PM
>> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>
>> Subject: Language learning by machines (LLMs) and by humans (L1)
>> (results)
>>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> At the end of August, I asked for help with L1 English data for a
>> comparison of language learning by LLMs and by humans. I promised to
>> post the results of the comparison and that is why I am writing now.
>>
>> I changed my initial strategy and instead of focusing on the first 100
>> words in L1 English and checking whether they are part of the
>> ChatGPT?s vocabulary, I compared the first component of ChatGPT, the
>> tokenizer, with its logical parallel, the early stages of L1. The
>> paper ?Machine learning versus human learning: Basic units and
>> form-meaning mapping? can be accessed at:
>> https://lingbuzz.net/lingbuzz/008548; a more detailed presentation of
>> tokenization in ?ChatGPT and linguistic theory, with a focus on
>> morphology?, available at: https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/008600. Both
>> papers are submitted for inclusion in edited collections and are
>> currently under review.
>>
>> Finally, I would like to thank Arnold Zwicky for the help with my L1
>> English query and Eve Clark for the response.
>>
>> Best,
>> Stela
>>
>> *********************
>> Dr. Stela MANOVA
>> [cid:8f89f40b-cbd8-45a1-8bba-c90f5e567169]
>> Email addresses:
>> manova at gaussaiglobal.com
>> manova.stela at gmail.com
>>
>> Websites:
>> https://www.gaussaiglobal.com
>> https://sites.google.com/view/stelamanova
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Arnold Zwicky arnold.zwicky at gmail.com
>>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2024 12:25 AM
>> To: Stela Manova manova.stela at gmail.com; Linguistic Linguistic
>> Typology lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] L1 English
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 9, 2024, at 12:21 PM, Stela Manova via Lingtyp lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org wrote:
>> >
>> > I am writing to ask for your help with the following issue. I have been working on the relationship between LLMs and linguistic theory and now it is time to check how language acquisition happens in humans and machines. I am therefore looking for the very first, at least, 100 words of children with L1 English (in the ideal case, data should come from different varieties of the language). ... Please feel free to forward the query to linguists that are not on the list.
>>
>>
>> I appealed to my old friend and illustrious colleague Eve Clark, and
>> here are her musings, for you to use as you wish. Please don't engage
>> with me on this (this is not at all my field) or with EC (who just
>> gave a quick reaction).
>>
>> ,,,,,
>>
>> We know a lot about the first 100+ words children produce (their early
>> comprehension isn?t as well documented) but parental reports can be
>> somewhat unreliable at times. All this is in the CHILDES Archive, of
>> course, with many further analyses of the CDI data also in Michael
>> Frank?s recent book:
>>
>> Frank, M. C., Braginsky, Mika; Yurovsky, Daniel, & Marchman, Virginia
>> A. 2021. Variability and Consistency in Early Language Learning: The
>> Wordbank project. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press.
>>
>> Another source I?d recommend is an article by Warstadt & Bowman:
>>
>> Warstadt, Alex, & Bowman, Samuel R. 2022. What artificial neural
>> networks can tell us about human language acquisition. In S. Lappin &
>> J.-P. Bernardy (eds.), Algebraic Structures in Natural Language (pp.
>> 17-29). London: CRC Press.
>> (They compare the actual amounts of input required for different
>> models to learn from, compared to human infants?)
>>
>> My general impression is that no-one in the LLM ?field? knows anything
>> about human language acquisition, certainly not the details for early
>> perception, phonological sequences, word identification/recognition,
>> word combination, speech acts, etc.etc. For a recent taste of this,
>> see the fourth edition of
>> Clark, E. V. 2024. First Language Acquisition (Cambridge UP) for all
>> that will need to be accounted for?
>> .....
>>
>> Arnold
>>
>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2024 20:58:42 -0800
>> From: Daniel Ross djross3 at gmail.com
>>
>> To: Zygmunt Frajzyngier zygmunt.frajzyngier at colorado.edu
>>
>> Cc: Jose Antonio Jodar Sanchez jjodarsa at buffalo.edu,
>>
>> "LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Verbs meaning 'and, with'
>> Message-ID:
>> CAAm4d-7YiPyRo2cALCXV5LgtxSptA4KejFDEAfrcmYLZSNoYCg at mail.gmail.com
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Dear Jose,
>>
>> The Torricelli "and verbs" stand out as interesting and unusual. In my
>> worldwide survey of coordination in several hundred languages (Ross
>> 2021) I
>> didn't find much else that closely resembles like this. Verbal
>> etymologies
>> of conjunctions are somewhat rare (vs. adpositions and adverbs) but
>> found
>> in a number of languages (see below on converbs specifically, although
>> it
>> could also be from other verb forms), but this is not exactly like the
>> Torricelli case, since they generally do not retain agreement
>> inflection.
>> Similarly, there are some agreeing adpositions which resemble verbs in
>> that
>> way in some languages, such as Cahuilla and some related Uto-Aztecan
>> languages, although I don't recall seeing these translated as
>> conjunctions,
>> just prepositions; they would also be more likely to be 'and, with'
>> functioning to combine nouns, rather than as verb/clause coordinators
>> (as
>> is the tendency shown from my survey, although there can also
>> sometimes be
>> overlap, but usually as a secondary extension from noun conjunction
>> function).
>>
>> There are also some languages where a verb 'accompany, be together, go
>> with' serves a coordinating-like function with nouns (similar to
>> comitative
>> prepositions), although I'm not sure that's what you're looking for (I
>> have
>> notes about this not summarized in my dissertation, but too many to
>> try to
>> list here: this isn't particularly rare, found in maybe around 10% of
>> my
>> sample based on my notes, especially since if there is already a
>> well-established coordinator 'and' I might not have also noted this as
>> a
>> secondary strategy). Another question is the etymology of the
>> Torricelli
>> "and verbs", which might be 'take' or 'use' (Brown & Dryer 2008:
>> 560-1): in
>> that case, this is similar to the extensive worldwide usage of TAKE
>> (and
>> occasionally USE) in serial verb constructions (Ross 2021: ?4.2.4),
>> although not grammaticalized in the same way as the Torricelli case.
>> Similarly, I imagine 'accompany' verbs might develop like that. So
>> this
>> might just be the connection between the two common grammaticalization
>> pathways of verb > comitative (especially via SVCs), and then
>> comitative >
>>
>> noun coordinator, with the unusual property of retaining verbal
>> agreement
>> in the coordination construction. This may also be relatively common
>> in
>> analytic languages with no verb agreement, for example in Chinese
>> languages
>> and various languages of Southeast Asia with "coverb" prepositions
>> grammaticalized from serial verb constructions, and then potentially
>> extended from comitative to noun coordinator, but in that case there
>> is no
>> verb agreement so this could be analyzed more straightforwardly as
>> just
>> category change (verb > preposition > conjunction).
>>
>>
>> In general, my survey confirms the specific Torricelli construction is
>> rare, but there are probably other some languages not included in my
>> sample
>> that have relevant features. From what I have come across, both within
>> my
>> sample and looking over other languages along the way, I can mention
>> three
>> cases I've noticed (mostly periphral to my sample) with constructions
>> most
>> similar to the Torricelli "and verbs":
>>
>> 1. Austronesian
>> As you mentioned, some Austronesian languages like Lamaholot
>> (Nishiyama
>> 2011) have agreeing conjunctions. I think other examples I've seen
>> aren't
>> quite as similar to Torricelli, but still have this property of
>> agreement.
>> For example, Lichtbenberk (2014) surveys conjunction-like sequential
>> markers that have different forms depending on the subject in Vitu and
>> some
>> related languages.
>>
>> 2. West Africa
>> Duncan et al. (2019) report an Ibibio (Niger-Congo, Nigeria)
>> construction
>> similar to Torricelli as in (1): note the 3SG prefix, similar to
>> (although
>> they argue distinct from) serial verbs. Souag (2015) also discusses
>> the
>> relatioship between comitatives, agreement and coordination in Songhay
>> (Nilo-Saharan?), including agreement in coordinative function but only
>> with
>> pronouns in Kwarandzyey as in (2); if the first conjunct is a full NP,
>> then
>> no agreement prefix is used. I have a vague memory of seeing something
>> else
>> in other languages in West Africa, although I'm not finding specific
>> reference(s) at the moment (so it might have only been one of these
>> papers
>> already cited), but this is a potentially relevant area to continue
>> searching in. It's interesting that distinct strategies of noun and
>> verb
>> coordination with these agreeing forms are attested, which is
>> something to
>> consider in the typology of these constructions.
>>
>> (1) ?m? ?-kp?n* ?-ny???* ?-y??y?.
>> Ima 3SG-become.big 3SG-CONJ 3SG-be.beautiful
>> 'Ima grew up and became beautiful.' (Duncan et al. 2019: 424)
>>
>> (2) a??y ?-ind?a ??m?m?ad y-a-nn?n at??y
>> 1SG 1SG-COM Hammad 1PL-PRF-drink tea
>> 'I and Hammad have drunk tea.' (Kwarandzyey: Souag 2015: 85)
>>
>> 3. Awa Pit (Barbacoan, Colombia):
>> Curnow (1997: 67-8, 308-9) describes verb coordination as in (3) with
>> phrasing reminiscent of the Torricelli "and verbs", but the similarity
>> may
>> be somewhat superficial. While Curnow refers to the -t suffix as
>> marking
>> "serial verbs" this is probably better classified as a converb suffix
>> (as a
>> dependency marker: see Ross 2021, 2025 for that different issue),
>> since
>> only the final verb in the sequence of "serial verbs" has finite
>> inflection
>> and the previous ones are inflected with this "-t", although it was
>> described as having only this function (rather than as a typical i.e.
>> adverbial converb suffix). This is the same -t in kit 'and',
>> grammaticalized from the verb 'do'. While the description is very
>> similar
>> to that of the Torricelli languages, it seems to me to be more like
>> other
>> examples of converbs developing into conjunctions as in 'come having,
>> Marcos ate plantains'. For example, there is a similar conjunction
>> etymology in Mongol from a converb of 'do': kiged 'and' < ki-ged
>> do-CVB
>> (Kara 2022; Ross 2025).
>>
>> (3) Marcos=na a-t kit pala ku-ma-t?
>> Marcos come-SV AND plantain eat-COMP-TERM
>> 'Marcos came and ate plantains.' (Curnow 1997: 309)
>>
>> Brown, Lea & Matthew S. Dryer. 2008. The Verbs for ?and? in Walman, a
>> Torricelli Language of Papua New Guinea. Language 84(3). 528?565.
>> https://doi.org/10.1353/lan.0.0044
>> Curnow, Timothy Jowan. 1997. A grammar of Awa Pit (Cuaiquer): An
>> indigenous
>> language of south-western Colombia. Australian National University
>> Ph.D.
>> dissertation.
>> Duncan, Philip T., Travis Major & Mfon Udoinyang. 2019. Verb and
>> predicate
>> coordination in Ibibio. In Emily Clem, Peter Jenks & Hannah Sande
>> (eds.), Theory
>> and description in African Linguistics: Selected papers from the 47th
>> Annual Conference on African Linguistics, 423?439.
>> http://dx.doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.3367170
>> Kara, Gy?rgy. 2022. Mongol kiged: A Verbal Adverb as Conjunction and
>> Verbal Noun. In Bayarma Khabtagaeva (ed.), Historical Linguistics and
>> Philology of Central Asia: Essays in Turkic and Mongolic Studies,
>> 298?310.
>> Leiden: Brill. https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004499966_019
>> Lichtenberk, Frantisek. 2014. Sequentiality-Futurity Links. Oceanic
>> Linguistics 53(1). 61?91. https://doi.org/10.1353/ol.2014.0000
>> Major, Travis. 2014. Serial Verbs in Ibibio. Kansas Working Papers in
>> Linguistics 35. 129?148. https://doi.org/10.17161/1808.16963
>> Nishiyama, Kunio. 2011. Conjunctive agreement in Lamaholot. Journal of
>> Linguistics 47. 381?405. https://doi.org/10.1017/S0022226710000356
>> Ross, Daniel. 2021. Pseudocoordination, Serial Verb Constructions and
>> Multi-Verb Predicates: The relationship between form and structure.
>> University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign Ph.D. dissertation.
>> https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.5546425
>> Ross, Daniel. 2025 (in press). The life cycle of converbs: A
>> diachronic
>> typology. In Paola Cotticelli-Kurras, Eystein Dahl & Jelena
>> ?ivojinovi?
>> (eds.), Diachronic, Typological, and Areal Aspects of Converbs.
>> Berlin:
>> De Gruyter Mouton.
>> Souag, Lameen. 2015. How to make a comitative preposition agree
>> it-with its
>> external argument: Songhay and the typology of conjunction and
>> agreement.
>> In J?rg Fleischer, Elisabeth Rieken & Paul Widmer (eds.), Agreement
>> from a
>> Diachronic Perspective, 75?100.
>> https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110399967-005
>>
>> I hope that's helpful, and I'd be interested in hearing about the
>> results
>> of your research!
>>
>> Daniel Ross
>> University of California, Riverside
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 24, 2024 at 8:55?AM Zygmunt Frajzyngier via Lingtyp <
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Dear Jose Anonio Jodar,
>> >
>> > You may find this paper useful for your research.
>> >
>> > In my Grammar of Gidar (2008) you fill find evidence of the verb ?go?
>> > serving as clausal conjunction.
>> >
>> > Frajzyngier, Zygmunt. 2005. Grammaticalization of phrasal and clausal
>> > relators. Afrika und ?bersee, 88, 79-102.
>> >
>> > All best,
>> >
>> > Zygmunt
>> >
>> > Zygmunt Frajzyngier
>> >
>> > Emeritus Professor of Linguistics
>> >
>> > University of Colorado
>> >
>> > www.colorado.edu>linguistics>Zygmunt_frajzyngier
>> >
>> > *From: *Lingtyp lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org on behalf of
>> > Jose Antonio Jodar Sanchez via Lingtyp lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> > *Date: *Sunday, November 24, 2024 at 6:53 AM
>> > *To: *LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> >
>> > *Subject: *[Lingtyp] Verbs meaning 'and, with'
>> >
>> > [External email - use caution]
>> >
>> > Dear all,
>> >
>> > My colleague Andrey Drinfeld and I are looking at a group of verbs meaning
>> > 'and, with' in a family of Papuan languages, the Torricelli family. Instead
>> > of using linking devices such as conjunctions (e.g. English 'and') or
>> > affixes/clitics (e.g. Amharic -?m) to join two noun phrases, these
>> > languages use verbs which have pronominal affixes for either subject,
>> > object, or both. Examples from Walman and Yeri can be found in (1) and (2)
>> > respectively, with the 'and' verb in bold:
>> >
>> > (1) [Runon n-a-? chu]
>> > y-an y-ayako-?
>> > klay-poch ...
>> > 3SG.M 3SG.M.SUBJ-and-3SG.F.OBJ wife 3PL.SUBJ-be.at
>> > http://3pl.subj-be.at/ 3PL.SUBJ-make-3SG.F.OBJ taro-porridge ...
>> > ?[He and his wife] were making taro porridge ...? (Brown and Dryer,
>> > 2008: 529)
>> >
>> > (2) Hem teipa dore m-nobia [Sila w-od*?-?*
>> > Lagosi].
>> > 1sg then get.up 1sg-talk.R Sila
>> > 3SG.F-and.R-SG.F Lagosi
>> > ?I got up and told [Sila and Lagosi].? (Wilson, 2017: 333)
>> >
>> > We have been operating under the assumption that this phenomenon is not
>> > attested outside the Torricelli family and a few Austronesian languages
>> > (such as Lamaholot), but we do not have concrete evidence one way or the
>> > other, and are considering the possibility that there may be other
>> > attestations of such a phenomenon elsewhere that have not gotten into the
>> > literature on this topic. We are wondering if anyone is aware of such a
>> > phenomenon being attested in other language families and parts of the world.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Jose.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Lingtyp mailing list
>> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
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