[Lingtyp] COME-passives

[Paolo Ramat]

Dear  Cat,
 I'm not a native speaker of Bavarian. My informations about the
*kommen*-passiv
derive from Willi Mayerthaler's article quoted in my previous mail.
Mayerthaler was born in Somerberg, Landkr. Rosenheim , Bezirk Oberbayern.
Thus, he was a native speaker of  (Ober-)Bavarian. You may find the exact
reference concerning Willi's  article in the paper Andrea Sansò attached to
his mail of  Febr. 23,  where the Authors write " Passive constructions
formed with the same building blocks as the Italian construction (‘come’ +
past participle) are [...] known from a handful of languages. For instance,
they are quite widespread in various circum-Alpine Romance and German
varieties: Surselvan and other Rhaeto-Romance varieties (Haiman & Benincà
1992; Ebneter 1994); Cimbrian (Schweizer 2008: 844–845; Tyroller 2003:122);
Bavarian (Wiesinger 1989); Swiss German (Bucheli Berger 2005);
Walserdialects in Switzerland and Italy (Gurinerdeutsch, cf. Russ 2002:
115; Pomatter-titsch, cf. Dal Negro 2004: 96; Gressoney Walser, cf. Zürrer
1982: 93)".
Best,
Paolo

Prof. Dr., Dr.h.c. Paolo Ramat
Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente
'Academia Europaea'
'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member
Università di Pavia (retired)
Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)

piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia
##39 0382 27027
347 044 98 44


Il giorno lun 24 feb 2025 alle ore 11:53 Cat Butz <Cat.Butz at hhu.de> ha
scritto:

> Interesting, in my variety of Bavarian, this is ungrammatical, and I
> don't think I've ever heard anyone say it, either. Could you tell me
> what varieties of Bavarian specifically use this construction, or give
> me the title of your article? Thank you.
>
> In any case, if I'm already writing this email, I thought I'd mention
> the German "bekommen" passive construction, which is syntactically
> similar to the "get" passive in English (They cut my hair. I got my hair
> cut.), with "bekommen" being etymologically derived from "kommen"
> (though now lexicalized).
>
> Warmest,
> ---
> Cat Butz (she)
> HHU Düsseldorf
> General Linguistics
>
>
> Am 23/02/2025 17:10, schrieb Paolo Ramat via Lingtyp:
> > In Bavarian German you may say
> > (1) _Då kummt de nei(e) Schul gebaut_
> > “Hier wird die neue Schule gebaut”,
> > probably a loan from Ital.  _Qui viene costruita la nuova scuola_, or
> > from Rhaeto-Romance _Co^ vein fabricheda la scuola nuova_
> > See Ramat in "Lg Sciences" 20 (3) , 1998: 227ff.  (with reference to
> > Mayerthaler & Mayerthaler 1990).
> >
> > Best,
> > Paolo Ramat
> >
> > Il giorno dom 23 feb 2025 alle ore 13:56 Timur Maisak via Lingtyp
> > <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> ha scritto:
> >
> >> Sure, see e.g. Maisak 2005 [1] or Schulze 2015 [2].
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Timur Maisak
> >>
> >> вс, 23 февр. 2025 г. в 15:42, Sergey Loesov via Lingtyp
> >> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>:
> >>
> >>> Dear colleagues,
> >>>
> >>> Are you aware of COME-passives in any of the world’s languages?
> >>> In Kurmanji, a North-West Iranian language, the passive voice is
> >>> formed using the verb _hatin_ (‘to come’), which is fully
> >>> conjugated for all TAM forms, followed by the infinitive. This
> >>> construction appears to be diachronically young, because Kurmanji
> >>> has a split ergative alignment. Its preterit base (from which the
> >>> infinitive seems to be formed secondarily) is a reflex of the _PIU
> >>> resultative participle in -ta_, and the choice between the
> >>> ergative and the absolutive depends entirely on the inherent
> >>> transitivity of the verb.
> >>>
> >>> Thank you very much,
> >>>
> >>> Sergey _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> > Links:
> > ------
> > [1] https://www.academia.edu/35547425/
> > [2] https://www.academia.edu/21211924/
> > _______________________________________________
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>
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