[Lingtyp] Lingtyp Digest, Vol 125, Issue 34

Tue Feb 25 13:23:50 UTC 2025

Dear Sergey,

Maltese has passives with ġie "come" plus the participle; they constitute a
calque of Italian venire passives, with no plausible Arabic-internal source
(see e.g. https://langsci-press.org/catalog/view/235/1815/1840-1 ).

Best wishes,
Lameen Souag

LACITO (CNRS - Sorbonne Nouvelle - INALCO)
https://lameensouag.wordpress.com/

On Tue, Feb 25, 2025 at 1:33 PM <lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org>
wrote:

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>    1. Re: COME-passives (Paolo Ramat)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2025 16:36:35 +0100
> From: Paolo Ramat <paoram at unipv.it>
> To: Cat Butz <Cat.Butz at hhu.de>
> Cc: Timur Maisak <timur.maisak at gmail.com>,
>         "LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"
>         <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] COME-passives
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAEaecYEZ+SepeXf+qU06E9nvjfRhFJ6veRdi_3K_8awbRVfDJQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear  Cat,
>  I'm not a native speaker of Bavarian. My informations about the
> *kommen*-passiv
> derive from Willi Mayerthaler's article quoted in my previous mail.
> Mayerthaler was born in Somerberg, Landkr. Rosenheim , Bezirk Oberbayern.
> Thus, he was a native speaker of  (Ober-)Bavarian. You may find the exact
> reference concerning Willi's  article in the paper Andrea Sans? attached to
> his mail of  Febr. 23,  where the Authors write " Passive constructions
> formed with the same building blocks as the Italian construction (?come? +
> past participle) are [...] known from a handful of languages. For instance,
> they are quite widespread in various circum-Alpine Romance and German
> varieties: Surselvan and other Rhaeto-Romance varieties (Haiman & Beninc?
> 1992; Ebneter 1994); Cimbrian (Schweizer 2008: 844?845; Tyroller 2003:122);
> Bavarian (Wiesinger 1989); Swiss German (Bucheli Berger 2005);
> Walserdialects in Switzerland and Italy (Gurinerdeutsch, cf. Russ 2002:
> 115; Pomatter-titsch, cf. Dal Negro 2004: 96; Gressoney Walser, cf. Z?rrer
> 1982: 93)".
> Best,
> Paolo
>
> Prof. Dr., Dr.h.c. Paolo Ramat
> Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente
> 'Academia Europaea'
> 'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member
> Universit? di Pavia (retired)
> Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)
>
> piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia
> ##39 0382 27027
> 347 044 98 44
>
>
> Il giorno lun 24 feb 2025 alle ore 11:53 Cat Butz <Cat.Butz at hhu.de> ha
> scritto:
>
> > Interesting, in my variety of Bavarian, this is ungrammatical, and I
> > don't think I've ever heard anyone say it, either. Could you tell me
> > what varieties of Bavarian specifically use this construction, or give
> > me the title of your article? Thank you.
> >
> > In any case, if I'm already writing this email, I thought I'd mention
> > the German "bekommen" passive construction, which is syntactically
> > similar to the "get" passive in English (They cut my hair. I got my hair
> > cut.), with "bekommen" being etymologically derived from "kommen"
> > (though now lexicalized).
> >
> > Warmest,
> > ---
> > Cat Butz (she)
> > HHU D?sseldorf
> > General Linguistics
> >
> >
> > Am 23/02/2025 17:10, schrieb Paolo Ramat via Lingtyp:
> > > In Bavarian German you may say
> > > (1) _D? kummt de nei(e) Schul gebaut_
> > > ?Hier wird die neue Schule gebaut?,
> > > probably a loan from Ital.  _Qui viene costruita la nuova scuola_, or
> > > from Rhaeto-Romance _Co^ vein fabricheda la scuola nuova_
> > > See Ramat in "Lg Sciences" 20 (3) , 1998: 227ff.  (with reference to
> > > Mayerthaler & Mayerthaler 1990).
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Paolo Ramat
> > >
> > > Il giorno dom 23 feb 2025 alle ore 13:56 Timur Maisak via Lingtyp
> > > <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> ha scritto:
> > >
> > >> Sure, see e.g. Maisak 2005 [1] or Schulze 2015 [2].
> > >>
> > >> Best,
> > >> Timur Maisak
> > >>
> > >> ??, 23 ????. 2025??. ? 15:42, Sergey Loesov via Lingtyp
> > >> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>:
> > >>
> > >>> Dear colleagues,
> > >>>
> > >>> Are you aware of COME-passives in any of the world?s languages?
> > >>> In Kurmanji, a North-West Iranian language, the passive voice is
> > >>> formed using the verb _hatin_ (?to come?), which is fully
> > >>> conjugated for all TAM forms, followed by the infinitive. This
> > >>> construction appears to be diachronically young, because Kurmanji
> > >>> has a split ergative alignment. Its preterit base (from which the
> > >>> infinitive seems to be formed secondarily) is a reflex of the _PIU
> > >>> resultative participle in -ta_, and the choice between the
> > >>> ergative and the absolutive depends entirely on the inherent
> > >>> transitivity of the verb.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thank you very much,
> > >>>
> > >>> Sergey _______________________________________________
> > >>> Lingtyp mailing list
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> > >
> > > Links:
> > > ------
> > > [1] https://www.academia.edu/35547425/
> > > [2] https://www.academia.edu/21211924/
> > > _______________________________________________
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> End of Lingtyp Digest, Vol 125, Issue 34
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