[Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm

Thu Mar 26 10:04:51 UTC 2026

dear Adam,

A classical example is the Latin demonstrative *iste*, in principle
anchored on 2nd person ("that one, near you"), but also likely to take on
derogatory undertones.  For example, in tribunal speeches, one would use
*iste* to refer to one's (loathed) opponent:

This is often mentioned in Latin grammars, like this passage from Allen &
Greenough
<https://dcc.dickinson.edu/grammar/latin/demonstrative-pronouns#:~:text=It%20especially%20refers%20to%20one%27s%20opponent%20(in%20court%2C%20etc.)%2C%20and%20frequently%20implies%20antagonism%20or%20contempt.>
:

*c.* Iste is used of what is *between the two others* in remoteness: often
> in allusion to the person addressed—hence called the *demonstrative of
> the 2nd person*. It especially refers to one's opponent (in court, etc.),
> and frequently implies antagonism or contempt.

See also this online grammar
<https://odysseum.eduscol.education.fr/les-demonstratifs#:~:text=pris%20une%20valeur%20p%C3%A9jorative>
in French:

>
>    - *Iste** est le démonstratif de 2e personne* ; il renvoie à la
>    personne à laquelle on s’adresse, et à tout ce qui la concerne. En raison
>    de son usage dans les discours pour désigner l’adversaire dans un procès
>    par exemple, il a également pris une valeur *péjorative*.
>
> *ista urbs*, cette ville (dont tu parles)
>
*iste vir*, cet homme-là (ce misérable)

Let me know if you want specific examples from texts.
One that comes to mind is the beginning of Cicero's *In Catilinam*:  *furor
iste tuus* “that (infamous) rage of yours”.

best
Alex

PS:  I also concur with Maïa's example from colloquial French *ste* [stə].
It is surely the phonetic similarity that reminded me of Latin *iste* 😄
------------------------------

Alex François
LaTTiCe <http://www.lattice.cnrs.fr/en/alexandre-francois/> — CNRS
<https://www.cnrs.fr/en> — <https://www.cnrs.fr/en> ENS
<https://www.ens.fr/laboratoire/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-et-cognition-umr-8094>
–PSL <https://www.psl.eu/en> — Sorbonne nouvelle
<http://www.sorbonne-nouvelle.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp>
<http://www.sorbonne-nouvelle.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp>
<http://www.sorbonne-nouvelle.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp>
Australian National University
<https://researchportalplus.anu.edu.au/en/persons/alex-francois>
HéLiCéO <https://heliceo.huma-num.fr/> —  <https://marama.huma-num.fr/>Personal
homepage <https://marama.huma-num.fr/>
_________________________________________

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: PONSONNET Maia via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2026 at 10:39
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
To: Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>, Lingtyp Linguistics
Typology <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>

Hi Adam and all,

In my variety of oral French, I believe that 'c'teu' [stœ], a modification
of 'cette', has negative connotations. I'm not sure about the 'out of the
norm' trait though  - I think it's just derogatory.

'Cette' is feminine, but I think one could even imagine [stœ] used with a
masculine noun, given the right context (e.g. putain c'teu temps de merde).
I have no idea whether this has been studied, but I'd be curious to know.

Cheers!

Maïa

Maïa Ponsonnet

Chargée de Recherche HDR @ CNRS Dynamique Du Langage

14, avenue Berthelot, 69007 Lyon, FRANCE  -- +33 4 72 72 65 46

Adjunct @ University of Western Australia

+ + + + +

Membre du Comité d'Ethique de la Recherche, Université de Lyon

<https://www.universite-lyon.fr/recherche/comite-d-ethique-de-la-recherche/comite-d-ethique-de-la-recherche-245561.kjsp>
https://cer.universite-lyon.fr/

------------------------------
*De :* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de
Christoph Holz via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
*Envoyé :* jeudi 26 mars 2026 10:17
*À :* Adam James Ross Tallman
*Cc :* LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
*Objet :* Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm

Hi Adam,

In Tiang (Oceanic, Papua New Guinea), the proximal visible demonstrative
*(o)ro* has negative overtones. In its emotional function, it indicates
surprise or anger of the speaker towards the referent marked with *(o)ro*
(Holz 2023: 197–200). This can include situations in which someone violates
socially expected behaviours.

Holz, Christoph. 2023. Discourse functions of ‘visible’ and ‘nonvisible’
demonstratives in Tiang (New Ireland) and in a cross-linguistic
perspective. In Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald, Robert L. Bradshaw, Luca Ciucci &
Pema Wangdi (eds.), *Celebrating indigenous voice: Legends and narratives
in languages of the tropics and beyond*, 181–217. Berlin: De Gruyter Mouton.

Best wishes

Christoph

-- 

*Christoph Holz*

Postdoctoral Research Fellow, University of Naples L'Orientale

Adjunct Research Fellow, Jawun Research Institute, CQU

Website: https://tianglanguage.wordpress.com/

Orcid: https://orcid.org/0009-0005-7997-4928

Recent publications:

A comprehensive grammar of Tiang
<https://acquire.cqu.edu.au/articles/thesis/A_comprehensive_grammar_of_Tiang/25182350?file=44461052>

Documentation of Konomala <https://www.elararchive.org/dk0759>

On Wed, 25 Mar 2026 at 15:32, Adam James Ross Tallman via Lingtyp <
lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:

>
> Hi all,
>
> In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do something)
> that deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a pretty
> preliminary description, so I'm open to other ideas and
> reconceptualizations. I call it 'more distal', as an adnominal marker, it
> doesn't tend to have this meaning.
>
>
>
> adnominal
>
> adverbial
>
> verb
>
> proximate
>
> *naa*
>
> *nɨa*
>
> *nɨka*
>
> distal
>
> *toa*
>
> *toa*
>
> *toka*
>
> more distal
>
> *oa*
>
> *oa~oka*
>
> *oka*
>
> At base the morpheme seems to mean "out of vision", but not always.
>
> I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar in
> another language? Let me know.
>
> best,
>
> Adam
> --
> Adam J.R. Tallman
> CNRS, Sedyl
>
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