[Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
Eline Visser
eelienu at pm.me
Thu Mar 26 12:53:45 UTC 2026
This (Norwegian) article about the ironic/derogatory Norwegian construction pronoun/determiner+demonstrative might be of help: https://ojs.novus.no/index.php/MOM/article/view/1953. See also Johannessen (2008) about psychologically distal demonstratives.
So, roughly: he that (worthless) husband of mine, that there (shitty) roundabout...
Eline
On Thursday, March 26th, 2026 at 1:09 PM, lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> (Adam James Ross Tallman)
> 2. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> (Arnold Zwicky)
> 3. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> (Adam James Ross Tallman)
> 4. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> (Sebastian Nordhoff)
> 5. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> (Christoph Holz)
> 6. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> (PONSONNET Maia)
> 7. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> (Pier Marco Bertinetto)
> 8. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> (Alex Francois)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2026 15:31:48 +0100
> From: Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>
> To: "LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"
> <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> Message-ID:
> <CAK0T6OihWPgP8BWUYbb745wD0QAn6XKHgkTrXGijfAdBADummg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi all,
>
> In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do something) that
> deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a pretty preliminary
> description, so I'm open to other ideas and reconceptualizations. I call it
> 'more distal', as an adnominal marker, it doesn't tend to have this meaning.
>
>
>
> adnominal
>
> adverbial
>
> verb
>
> proximate
>
> *naa*
>
> *n?a*
>
> *n?ka*
>
> distal
>
> *toa*
>
> *toa*
>
> *toka*
>
> more distal
>
> *oa*
>
> *oa~oka*
>
> *oka*
>
> At base the morpheme seems to mean "out of vision", but not always.
>
> I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar in
> another language? Let me know.
>
> best,
>
> Adam
> --
> Adam J.R. Tallman
> CNRS, Sedyl
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2026 07:54:11 -0700
> From: Arnold Zwicky <arnold.zwicky at gmail.com>
> To: Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>
> Cc: Linguistic Typology <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
> norm
> Message-ID: <733BC761-0BA2-4D63-8822-0DFCC3B4F13B at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>
> > On Mar 25, 2026, at 7:31 AM, Adam James Ross Tallman via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do something) that deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a pretty preliminary description, so I'm open to other ideas and reconceptualizations. I call it 'more distal', as an adnominal marker, it doesn't tend to have this meaning.
> ..
> > I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar in another language? Let me know.
>
> his isn't very helpful, but I have a recolletion of remote distal demonstratives being cited in several languages, though I can't now find atual citations. (I suffer from having lost all my files and also library access, so I have only my very aged and imperfect memory.)
>
> Arnold
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2026 16:13:40 +0100
> From: Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>
> To: "LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"
> <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
> norm
> Message-ID:
> <CAK0T6OheH-EqwExzuzmL1L+5s+95zp6aLrGbzWdV_7TTLEya=Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Sorry just to clarify ... I meant not just cases of "out of vision"
> demonstratives, but cases where demonstratives mean something about social
> inappropriateness or dissonance.
>
> A.
>
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2026 at 3:31?PM Adam James Ross Tallman <
> ajrtallman at utexas.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do something)
> > that deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a pretty
> > preliminary description, so I'm open to other ideas and
> > reconceptualizations. I call it 'more distal', as an adnominal marker, it
> > doesn't tend to have this meaning.
> >
> >
> >
> > adnominal
> >
> > adverbial
> >
> > verb
> >
> > proximate
> >
> > *naa*
> >
> > *n?a*
> >
> > *n?ka*
> >
> > distal
> >
> > *toa*
> >
> > *toa*
> >
> > *toka*
> >
> > more distal
> >
> > *oa*
> >
> > *oa~oka*
> >
> > *oka*
> >
> > At base the morpheme seems to mean "out of vision", but not always.
> >
> > I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar in
> > another language? Let me know.
> >
> > best,
> >
> > Adam
> > --
> > Adam J.R. Tallman
> > CNRS, Sedyl
> >
> >
>
> --
> Adam J.R. Tallman
> Post-doctoral Researcher
> Friedrich Schiller Universit?t
> Department of English Studies
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2026 16:21:19 +0100
> From: Sebastian Nordhoff <sebastian.nordhoff at glottotopia.de>
> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
> norm
> Message-ID: <b4ff4c07-7659-4a36-a987-62d183eaa80d at glottotopia.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Hi Adam,
> not sure whether this is relevant, but the proximal demonstrative
> "diese(r/s)" is used in this function with proper names in German. There
> is a book series called "Immer dieser Michel", 'Always this Michel',
> which is about a boy called Michel who does mischievous/socially
> inappropriate things.
> I think that with the right intonation, it would also work for common
> nouns like "Dieser B?rgermeister schon wieder!" 'What did the mayor do
> yet again!'
> Best wishes
> Sebastian
>
>
> On 3/25/26 16:13, Adam James Ross Tallman via Lingtyp wrote:
> > Sorry just to clarify ... I meant not just cases of "out of vision"
> > demonstratives, but cases where demonstratives mean something about
> > social inappropriateness or dissonance.
> >
> > A.
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 25, 2026 at 3:31?PM Adam James Ross Tallman
> > <ajrtallman at utexas.edu <mailto:ajrtallman at utexas.edu>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do
> > something) that deviates from socially normal expectations". This is
> > a pretty preliminary description, so I'm open to other ideas and
> > reconceptualizations. I call it 'more distal', as an adnominal
> > marker, it doesn't tend to have this meaning.
> >
> >
> >
> > adnominal
> >
> >
> >
> > adverbial
> >
> >
> >
> > verb
> >
> > proximate
> >
> >
> >
> > /naa/
> >
> >
> >
> > /n?a/
> >
> >
> >
> > /n?ka/
> >
> > distal
> >
> >
> >
> > /toa/
> >
> >
> >
> > /toa/
> >
> >
> >
> > /toka/
> >
> > more distal
> >
> >
> >
> > /oa/
> >
> >
> >
> > /oa~oka/
> >
> >
> >
> > /oka/
> >
> >
> > At base the morpheme seems to mean "out of vision", but not always.
> >
> > I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar
> > in another language? Let me know.
> >
> > best,
> >
> > Adam
> > --
> > Adam J.R. Tallman
> > CNRS, Sedyl
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Adam J.R. Tallman
> > Post-doctoral Researcher
> > Friedrich Schiller Universit?t
> > Department of English Studies
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2026 10:17:59 +0100
> From: Christoph Holz <christoph.holz at cqumail.com>
> To: Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>
> Cc: "LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"
> <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
> norm
> Message-ID:
> <CAO041KfkZFU49yQmWTszu5GkKeOtXj=ZYFAkZ0d4AJTZX2Fmdw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi Adam,
>
>
>
> In Tiang (Oceanic, Papua New Guinea), the proximal visible demonstrative
> *(o)ro* has negative overtones. In its emotional function, it indicates
> surprise or anger of the speaker towards the referent marked with *(o)ro*
> (Holz 2023: 197?200). This can include situations in which someone violates
> socially expected behaviours.
>
>
>
> Holz, Christoph. 2023. Discourse functions of ?visible? and ?nonvisible?
> demonstratives in Tiang (New Ireland) and in a cross-linguistic
> perspective. In Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald, Robert L. Bradshaw, Luca Ciucci &
> Pema Wangdi (eds.), *Celebrating indigenous voice: Legends and narratives
> in languages of the tropics and beyond*, 181?217. Berlin: De Gruyter Mouton.
>
>
>
> Best wishes
>
> Christoph
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Christoph Holz*
>
> Postdoctoral Research Fellow, University of Naples L'Orientale
>
> Adjunct Research Fellow, Jawun Research Institute, CQU
>
>
>
> Website: https://tianglanguage.wordpress.com/
>
> Orcid: https://orcid.org/0009-0005-7997-4928
>
>
>
> Recent publications:
>
> A comprehensive grammar of Tiang
> <https://acquire.cqu.edu.au/articles/thesis/A_comprehensive_grammar_of_Tiang/25182350?file=44461052>
>
> Documentation of Konomala <https://www.elararchive.org/dk0759>
>
>
> On Wed, 25 Mar 2026 at 15:32, Adam James Ross Tallman via Lingtyp <
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do something)
> > that deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a pretty
> > preliminary description, so I'm open to other ideas and
> > reconceptualizations. I call it 'more distal', as an adnominal marker, it
> > doesn't tend to have this meaning.
> >
> >
> >
> > adnominal
> >
> > adverbial
> >
> > verb
> >
> > proximate
> >
> > *naa*
> >
> > *n?a*
> >
> > *n?ka*
> >
> > distal
> >
> > *toa*
> >
> > *toa*
> >
> > *toka*
> >
> > more distal
> >
> > *oa*
> >
> > *oa~oka*
> >
> > *oka*
> >
> > At base the morpheme seems to mean "out of vision", but not always.
> >
> > I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar in
> > another language? Let me know.
> >
> > best,
> >
> > Adam
> > --
> > Adam J.R. Tallman
> > CNRS, Sedyl
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >
> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2026 09:39:22 +0000
> From: PONSONNET Maia <maia.ponsonnet at cnrs.fr>
> To: Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>, "Lingtyp
> Linguistics Typology" <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
> norm
> Message-ID: <ab80d285e85946ac92c647a1e85e7c7c at cnrs.fr>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi Adam and all,
>
>
> In my variety of oral French, I believe that 'c'teu' [st?], a modification of 'cette', has negative connotations. I'm not sure about the 'out of the norm' trait though - I think it's just derogatory.
>
>
> 'Cette' is feminine, but I think one could even imagine [st?] used with a masculine noun, given the right context (e.g. putain c'teu temps de merde). I have no idea whether this has been studied, but I'd be curious to know.
>
>
> Cheers!
>
> Ma?a
>
>
> Ma?a Ponsonnet
>
> Charg?e de Recherche HDR @ CNRS Dynamique Du Langage
>
> 14, avenue Berthelot, 69007 Lyon, FRANCE -- +33 4 72 72 65 46
>
> Adjunct @ University of Western Australia
>
> + + + + +
>
> Membre du Comit? d'Ethique de la Recherche, Universit? de Lyon
>
> <https://www.universite-lyon.fr/recherche/comite-d-ethique-de-la-recherche/comite-d-ethique-de-la-recherche-245561.kjsp>
>
> https://cer.universite-lyon.fr/
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> De : Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de Christoph Holz via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Envoy? : jeudi 26 mars 2026 10:17
> ? : Adam James Ross Tallman
> Cc : LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
> Objet : Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
>
>
> Hi Adam,
>
>
>
> In Tiang (Oceanic, Papua New Guinea), the proximal visible demonstrative (o)ro has negative overtones. In its emotional function, it indicates surprise or anger of the speaker towards the referent marked with (o)ro (Holz 2023: 197?200). This can include situations in which someone violates socially expected behaviours.
>
>
>
> Holz, Christoph. 2023. Discourse functions of ?visible? and ?nonvisible? demonstratives in Tiang (New Ireland) and in a cross-linguistic perspective. In Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald, Robert L. Bradshaw, Luca Ciucci & Pema Wangdi (eds.), Celebrating indigenous voice: Legends and narratives in languages of the tropics and beyond, 181?217. Berlin: De Gruyter Mouton.
>
>
>
> Best wishes
>
> Christoph
>
>
>
> --
>
> Christoph Holz
>
> Postdoctoral Research Fellow, University of Naples L'Orientale
>
> Adjunct Research Fellow, Jawun Research Institute, CQU
>
>
>
> Website: https://tianglanguage.wordpress.com/
>
> Orcid: https://orcid.org/0009-0005-7997-4928
>
>
>
> Recent publications:
>
> A comprehensive grammar of Tiang<https://acquire.cqu.edu.au/articles/thesis/A_comprehensive_grammar_of_Tiang/25182350?file=44461052>
>
> Documentation of Konomala<https://www.elararchive.org/dk0759>
>
>
> On Wed, 25 Mar 2026 at 15:32, Adam James Ross Tallman via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do something) that deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a pretty preliminary description, so I'm open to other ideas and reconceptualizations. I call it 'more distal', as an adnominal marker, it doesn't tend to have this meaning.
>
>
>
>
>
> adnominal
>
>
> adverbial
>
>
> verb
>
>
> proximate
>
>
> naa
>
>
> n?a
>
>
> n?ka
>
>
> distal
>
>
> toa
>
>
> toa
>
>
> toka
>
>
> more distal
>
>
> oa
>
>
> oa~oka
>
>
> oka
>
>
> At base the morpheme seems to mean "out of vision", but not always.
>
> I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar in another language? Let me know.
>
> best,
>
> Adam
> --
> Adam J.R. Tallman
> CNRS, Sedyl
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2026 11:02:35 +0100
> From: Pier Marco Bertinetto <piermarco.bertinetto at sns.it>
> To: Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
> norm
> Message-ID:
> <CABoVV5_+tYgK_cYEVtS+tOs-M3r3TzcFVdieekP8KTLNCgx39Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> The Italian proximal demonstrative* (que)sto* (ms) / *(que)sta *(fm) (with
> the corresponding plurals) are frequently used with some pragmatically
> negative connotation. This does not occur with the distal demonstrative (
> *quello*/*quella*), but I am pretty sure it can occur with the
> near-the-addressee proximal (*codesto*/*codesta*) for the varieties that
> have such a lexeme; not only the Tuscan variety, but also various southern
> dialects.
> But then, I doubt that proximal demonstratives are generally (if not
> universally) liable to develop such negative connotations. In other words,
> rather than being an idiosyncrasy of some languages, isn't this a
> widespread phenomenon?
> I bet somebody has the answer.
> Best
> Pier Marco
>
>
> Il giorno gio 26 mar 2026 alle ore 10:39 PONSONNET Maia via Lingtyp <
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> ha scritto:
>
> > Hi Adam and all,
> >
> >
> > In my variety of oral French, I believe that 'c'teu' [st?], a
> > modification of 'cette', has negative connotations. I'm not sure about the
> > 'out of the norm' trait though - I think it's just derogatory.
> >
> >
> > 'Cette' is feminine, but I think one could even imagine [st?] used with a
> > masculine noun, given the right context (e.g. putain c'teu temps de merde).
> > I have no idea whether this has been studied, but I'd be curious to know.
> >
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > Ma?a
> >
> >
> > Ma?a Ponsonnet
> >
> > Charg?e de Recherche HDR @ CNRS Dynamique Du Langage
> >
> > 14, avenue Berthelot, 69007 Lyon, FRANCE -- +33 4 72 72 65 46
> >
> > Adjunct @ University of Western Australia
> >
> > + + + + +
> >
> > Membre du Comit? d'Ethique de la Recherche, Universit? de Lyon
> >
> >
> > <https://www.universite-lyon.fr/recherche/comite-d-ethique-de-la-recherche/comite-d-ethique-de-la-recherche-245561.kjsp>
> > https://cer.universite-lyon.fr/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > *De :* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de
> > Christoph Holz via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > *Envoy? :* jeudi 26 mars 2026 10:17
> > *? :* Adam James Ross Tallman
> > *Cc :* LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
> > *Objet :* Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> >
> >
> > Hi Adam,
> >
> >
> >
> > In Tiang (Oceanic, Papua New Guinea), the proximal visible demonstrative
> > *(o)ro* has negative overtones. In its emotional function, it indicates
> > surprise or anger of the speaker towards the referent marked with *(o)ro*
> > (Holz 2023: 197?200). This can include situations in which someone violates
> > socially expected behaviours.
> >
> >
> >
> > Holz, Christoph. 2023. Discourse functions of ?visible? and ?nonvisible?
> > demonstratives in Tiang (New Ireland) and in a cross-linguistic
> > perspective. In Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald, Robert L. Bradshaw, Luca Ciucci &
> > Pema Wangdi (eds.), *Celebrating indigenous voice: Legends and narratives
> > in languages of the tropics and beyond*, 181?217. Berlin: De Gruyter
> > Mouton.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best wishes
> >
> > Christoph
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > *Christoph Holz*
> >
> > Postdoctoral Research Fellow, University of Naples L'Orientale
> >
> > Adjunct Research Fellow, Jawun Research Institute, CQU
> >
> >
> >
> > Website: https://tianglanguage.wordpress.com/
> >
> > Orcid: https://orcid.org/0009-0005-7997-4928
> >
> >
> >
> > Recent publications:
> >
> > A comprehensive grammar of Tiang
> > <https://acquire.cqu.edu.au/articles/thesis/A_comprehensive_grammar_of_Tiang/25182350?file=44461052>
> >
> > Documentation of Konomala <https://www.elararchive.org/dk0759>
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 25 Mar 2026 at 15:32, Adam James Ross Tallman via Lingtyp <
> > lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do something)
> >> that deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a pretty
> >> preliminary description, so I'm open to other ideas and
> >> reconceptualizations. I call it 'more distal', as an adnominal marker, it
> >> doesn't tend to have this meaning.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> adnominal
> >>
> >> adverbial
> >>
> >> verb
> >>
> >> proximate
> >>
> >> *naa*
> >>
> >> *n?a*
> >>
> >> *n?ka*
> >>
> >> distal
> >>
> >> *toa*
> >>
> >> *toa*
> >>
> >> *toka*
> >>
> >> more distal
> >>
> >> *oa*
> >>
> >> *oa~oka*
> >>
> >> *oka*
> >>
> >> At base the morpheme seems to mean "out of vision", but not always.
> >>
> >> I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar in
> >> another language? Let me know.
> >>
> >> best,
> >>
> >> Adam
> >> --
> >> Adam J.R. Tallman
> >> CNRS, Sedyl
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Lingtyp mailing list
> >> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
>
>
> --
>
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> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2026 11:04:51 +0100
> From: Alex Francois <alex.francois.cnrs at gmail.com>
> To: Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>
> Cc: Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
> norm
> Message-ID:
> <CAGcZC0qEYdRGZ3t_RWrUCMEyb_Q8vj9vqncvuZcRACmUirir2A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> dear Adam,
>
> A classical example is the Latin demonstrative *iste*, in principle
> anchored on 2nd person ("that one, near you"), but also likely to take on
> derogatory undertones. For example, in tribunal speeches, one would use
> *iste* to refer to one's (loathed) opponent:
>
> This is often mentioned in Latin grammars, like this passage from Allen &
> Greenough
> <https://dcc.dickinson.edu/grammar/latin/demonstrative-pronouns#:~:text=It%20especially%20refers%20to%20one%27s%20opponent%20(in%20court%2C%20etc.)%2C%20and%20frequently%20implies%20antagonism%20or%20contempt.>
> :
>
> *c.* Iste is used of what is *between the two others* in remoteness: often
> > in allusion to the person addressed?hence called the *demonstrative of
> > the 2nd person*. It especially refers to one's opponent (in court, etc.),
> > and frequently implies antagonism or contempt.
>
>
>
> See also this online grammar
> <https://odysseum.eduscol.education.fr/les-demonstratifs#:~:text=pris%20une%20valeur%20p%C3%A9jorative>
> in French:
>
> >
> > - *Iste** est le d?monstratif de 2e personne* ; il renvoie ? la
> > personne ? laquelle on s?adresse, et ? tout ce qui la concerne. En raison
> > de son usage dans les discours pour d?signer l?adversaire dans un proc?s
> > par exemple, il a ?galement pris une valeur *p?jorative*.
> >
> > *ista urbs*, cette ville (dont tu parles)
> >
> *iste vir*, cet homme-l? (ce mis?rable)
>
>
> Let me know if you want specific examples from texts.
> One that comes to mind is the beginning of Cicero's *In Catilinam*: *furor
> iste tuus* ?that (infamous) rage of yours?.
>
> best
> Alex
>
> PS: I also concur with Ma?a's example from colloquial French *ste* [st?].
> It is surely the phonetic similarity that reminded me of Latin *iste* ?
> ------------------------------
>
> Alex Fran?ois
> LaTTiCe <http://www.lattice.cnrs.fr/en/alexandre-francois/> ? CNRS
> <https://www.cnrs.fr/en> ? <https://www.cnrs.fr/en> ENS
> <https://www.ens.fr/laboratoire/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-et-cognition-umr-8094>
> ?PSL <https://www.psl.eu/en> ? Sorbonne nouvelle
> <http://www.sorbonne-nouvelle.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp>
> <http://www.sorbonne-nouvelle.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp>
> <http://www.sorbonne-nouvelle.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp>
> Australian National University
> <https://researchportalplus.anu.edu.au/en/persons/alex-francois>
> H?LiC?O <https://heliceo.huma-num.fr/> ? <https://marama.huma-num.fr/>Personal
> homepage <https://marama.huma-num.fr/>
> _________________________________________
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: PONSONNET Maia via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2026 at 10:39
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> To: Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>, Lingtyp Linguistics
> Typology <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>
>
> Hi Adam and all,
>
>
> In my variety of oral French, I believe that 'c'teu' [st?], a modification
> of 'cette', has negative connotations. I'm not sure about the 'out of the
> norm' trait though - I think it's just derogatory.
>
>
> 'Cette' is feminine, but I think one could even imagine [st?] used with a
> masculine noun, given the right context (e.g. putain c'teu temps de merde).
> I have no idea whether this has been studied, but I'd be curious to know.
>
>
> Cheers!
>
> Ma?a
>
>
> Ma?a Ponsonnet
>
> Charg?e de Recherche HDR @ CNRS Dynamique Du Langage
>
> 14, avenue Berthelot, 69007 Lyon, FRANCE -- +33 4 72 72 65 46
>
> Adjunct @ University of Western Australia
>
> + + + + +
>
> Membre du Comit? d'Ethique de la Recherche, Universit? de Lyon
>
> <https://www.universite-lyon.fr/recherche/comite-d-ethique-de-la-recherche/comite-d-ethique-de-la-recherche-245561.kjsp>
> https://cer.universite-lyon.fr/
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *De :* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de
> Christoph Holz via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Envoy? :* jeudi 26 mars 2026 10:17
> *? :* Adam James Ross Tallman
> *Cc :* LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
> *Objet :* Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
>
>
> Hi Adam,
>
>
>
> In Tiang (Oceanic, Papua New Guinea), the proximal visible demonstrative
> *(o)ro* has negative overtones. In its emotional function, it indicates
> surprise or anger of the speaker towards the referent marked with *(o)ro*
> (Holz 2023: 197?200). This can include situations in which someone violates
> socially expected behaviours.
>
>
>
> Holz, Christoph. 2023. Discourse functions of ?visible? and ?nonvisible?
> demonstratives in Tiang (New Ireland) and in a cross-linguistic
> perspective. In Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald, Robert L. Bradshaw, Luca Ciucci &
> Pema Wangdi (eds.), *Celebrating indigenous voice: Legends and narratives
> in languages of the tropics and beyond*, 181?217. Berlin: De Gruyter Mouton.
>
>
>
> Best wishes
>
> Christoph
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Christoph Holz*
>
> Postdoctoral Research Fellow, University of Naples L'Orientale
>
> Adjunct Research Fellow, Jawun Research Institute, CQU
>
>
>
> Website: https://tianglanguage.wordpress.com/
>
> Orcid: https://orcid.org/0009-0005-7997-4928
>
>
>
> Recent publications:
>
> A comprehensive grammar of Tiang
> <https://acquire.cqu.edu.au/articles/thesis/A_comprehensive_grammar_of_Tiang/25182350?file=44461052>
>
> Documentation of Konomala <https://www.elararchive.org/dk0759>
>
>
> On Wed, 25 Mar 2026 at 15:32, Adam James Ross Tallman via Lingtyp <
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do something)
> > that deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a pretty
> > preliminary description, so I'm open to other ideas and
> > reconceptualizations. I call it 'more distal', as an adnominal marker, it
> > doesn't tend to have this meaning.
> >
> >
> >
> > adnominal
> >
> > adverbial
> >
> > verb
> >
> > proximate
> >
> > *naa*
> >
> > *n?a*
> >
> > *n?ka*
> >
> > distal
> >
> > *toa*
> >
> > *toa*
> >
> > *toka*
> >
> > more distal
> >
> > *oa*
> >
> > *oa~oka*
> >
> > *oka*
> >
> > At base the morpheme seems to mean "out of vision", but not always.
> >
> > I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar in
> > another language? Let me know.
> >
> > best,
> >
> > Adam
> > --
> > Adam J.R. Tallman
> > CNRS, Sedyl
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> >
> _______________________________________________
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