LL-L: "Orthography" [D/E/S] LOWLANDS-L, 28.MAY.1999 (06)

Wed Jun 2 22:43:54 UTC 1999

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From: Ian James Parsley <I.J.Parsley at newcastle.ac.uk>
Subject: Orthography

>         Als Nederlander wonend in de UK, verbaas ik me er telkens weer
> over dat zware lokale accenten hier algemeen geaccepteerd worden, zelfs
> hoog op de sociale ladder.  George Robinson in Blair's kabinet spreekt
> met een onmiskenbaar Schots accent.  Een van mijn zakenrelaties in
> Londen (Managing Director van een miljarden bedrijf) doet geen enkele
> moeite om zijn Geordie accent te verdoezelen.

Yes, note I did say "English" dialects rather than British -
certainly cabinet ministers from Scotland retain their accents, Tony
Blair even has traces of the Scottish accent of his childhood
(consider his pronunciation of 'i' in _bit_, for example). Scottish
newsreaders, for example, keep their accent even when reading the UK
news in London. This also applies to Northern Ireland (take political
correspondent John Cole) or Wales (Huw Edwards, who often reads the 6
o'clock BBC news). However *English* newsreaders leave little hint of
where exactly they're from - even the local news here in Newcastle is
read in a "standard" English accent.

As for the Geordie, the deliberate use of accent often hinges on
local identity. The North-East of England is, for example, the only
area of England where the polls suggest local people are in favour of
a regional assembly (along the lines of those recently set up in
Scotland and Wales), and many cars proudly display "NE" or
Northumbria stickers. I would never say Geordies are not proud of
their accent, simply that it is not on the same scale as Scots. There
is no real equivalent of "Oor Wullie" or a John Pepper book series
for example.

However, I went to the doctor's recently here in Newcastle and
although you could just about tell he was local, he didn't have a
strong accent. Yet when I met a doctor in Cologne he even used "ik"
and "dat" to me, a foreigner. Politicians in *England* very often
hide their accent (which they think would show a lack of education),
yet Bavarian politicians often take lessons in making their accents
*more* Bavarian.

Obviously I can't speak for the Netherlands, but I do think, though
things are definitely changing, it still pays to have the BBC accent
in many areas of England, whereas there is no accent with such
prestige in Germany (or even Scotland or Northern Ireland for that
matter, although obviously some accents are considered more
"educated" than others).
--------
Ian.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/1677

----------

From: Andrew Eagle <K27 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Orthography (E/S)

>>Ian wrate:

>>Words such as "seen" and "keen" tend to be spelled AE in Ulster - I
>>wonder is that because of an older phonology? I would pronounce the
>>vowel in "saen" (Eng. "seen") differently from in "reik" (Scottish
>>Scots "reek") - could there be any historical basis for this, or am I
>>maybe being misled by numerous Ulster writers who use these
>>spellings?
>>
>>Unfortunately phonology is far from a speciality of mine so I cannot
>>answer these questions.

John reponed:

>I'v nae idea, Ian - soonds like a job for Andy! In Scottish Scots it's
>uisually the cless o words at haes EA in English - like _bread_ an _head_ -
>at haes an AE [e] pronunciation in some by-leids, but a [i] pronunciation
>in ithers. Words at haes EE in English is maistly said 'ee' [i] in aa Scots
>by-leids, as faur's I ken. In my ain variety o Shetlandic - whaur monie sic
>words wi EA in English haes the [e] pronunciation - e.g. 'haed' raither nor
>'heid'; 'aet' raither nor 'eat' - words wi EE in English is maistly said
>'ee' [i] tae. This maun gang back ti the oreiginal disteinction (I think it
>wis atween [E] spelled EA an [e] spelled EE) at kythed the differ atween EA
>an EE spellins in English, but I canna see hou this cuid laed (that's ane o
>thaim!) til words wi EE in English comin ti be sayed [e] in Ulster, but
>words like 'reik' bein sayed [i]. (Unless it's juist words wi followin -N,
>or some condeition like that.)

A wis leukin intae siclike a while syne. Ma 'stateistical' mass aiblins
wisna eneuch for tae come tae onie weel grundit conclusion. Apairt fae the
fact that A'm no a lairnt linguist, ma want o ken micht cuid gar me gang
agley.

Wirds that A wad aye spell <ee> (in Scots) is for
ensaumple, teeth, need, green an keep. Thay aa come frae the Anglo-Saxon
lang <e> an tae ma ken is pronounced /i/ in aa Scots Scots dialects. Whan
final, <ee> is pronounced  lik /Ei/ in Southren Scots eg. dee (die).
Ithers is frae Angl-Saxon lang ash,  for ensaumple deed, sleep an weet*
(wet). *Whiles wat.

Wirds that A for ordinar spell <ea>  (in  Scots) is for
ensaumple, east, sheaf, beat etc. but heid (head), deif (deaf) an deid
(dead). Thir comes fae Anglo-Saxon <ea> (lang e).
Seimlar wi wirds lik bear v., eat, meal, meat, steal an tear v. etc. is fae
the Anglo-Saxon <e>. Thir wirds haes /i/ is some dialects an /e/ in ithers.

Wirds fae the Anglo-Saxon <eo> (lang e) aye haes /i/ in Scots, for ordinar
spelt <ei> in Scots, tho whiles <ee> eg. breist (breast), freind (friend),
seik (sick) an  wheel etc.  Whan final <ee> is pronounced  lik /Ei/ in
Southren Scots eg. knee, free an three etc.

Daith (death) an braith (breath) aye seems tae be pronounced wi /e/ in
Scots.

As tae hou the abuin affects Ulster Scots A kin but jalouse. A wad say that
/e/ is the Ulster Scots renderin o thae wirds that haes  /i/ in aa  Scots
Scots dialects.

Hou wad siclike affect orthography?
 We can sinder atween wirds that's:

1. pronounced /i/ in aa Scots dialects (/e/ in Ulster).
2. Pronounced /i/ or /e/ dependin on dialect.

1. Aiblins wirds that's pronounced wi /i/ in aa Scots Scots dialects shuid
be spelt <ee>. eg. teeth, need, green, keep, dee, deed, sleep, weet, knee,
free,
three,

Final <ee> wad be pronounced /Ei/ in soothren Scots an aa thir wirds /e/ in
Ulster.
Whit aboot breest (breast), freend (friend), seek (sick) an wheel etc? Are
thir wirds pronounced wi /e/ in Ulster?

2. Aiblins wirds that's pronounced aither /i/ or /e/ shuid be spelt <ei>
eg. eist (east), sheif /sheaf), beit (beat), heid (head), deif (deaf), deid
(dead), eit (eat), meit (meat), steil (steal), teir (tear).

Anither option wad be tae spell aa the wirds in 2. <ea>. Thon wad gie's
head, deaf an dead. Monie fowk wadna thole siclike as Scots spellins.

Simlar applees tae wirds o Romance an Scandinavian spring-heid.

A'm no richt shuir whit the historical soond shifts here is. A hae wittins
anent soond shifts (Scots) but A'm no richt siccar tae whit wirds it
applees.
Aiblins a bodie kens the relevant Inglis anes?

Andy

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