LL-L: "Pronouns" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 02.JUN.1999 (03)

Wed Jun 2 22:51:31 UTC 1999

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From: Brandsma <brandsma at twi.tudelft.nl>
Subject: Pronouns

>>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at geocities.com>
>>Subject: Pronouns
>>
>
Hoi allegearre!

Been on a holiday for two and a half weeks (to Madrid and Barcelona), so it
took me a while to read all the LL postings...

>>Dear Lowlanders,
>>
>>I received the following request and wonder if any of you can help.  It
>>looks like a question and theory that quite a few of us might be
>>interested in.
>>
>>Of course, as always when we deal with questions about modern or more
>>recent varieties of Frisian, we first ought to ask "What Frisian are you
>>talking about?"  There are about ten major modern varieties that some may
>>argue to be separate languages or at least major dialect groups with up to
>>poor or even impossible mutual intelligibility.  Usually Westerlauwer
>>("West") Frisian (used in the Netherlands) is taken as the default for
>>"Frisian," probably because it is the most established (i.e., the least
>>threatened and administratively the most "powerful") and has the largest
>>number of speakers.  However, bear in mind that some Frisians in Germany
>>(where the largest number of varieties is used, albeit each with
>>relatively few speakers) may find that unfair.  Ideally, a study like that
>>ought to include data from all or most varieties.  I am sure that the
>>Friisk Instituut in Bra"ist/Bredstedt, Germany, could serve as a useful
>>resource here.  Perhaps our Frisian speakers and experts on this list can
>>help also.
>

In this case it must be modern West Frisian that's meant: look at the
"jim(me)" at the end, similar forms do exist in other Frisian varieties as
well..

>
>>Best regards,
>>
>>Reinhard/Ron
>>
>>From: "Richard Dury" <richard at spm.it>
>>To: <sassisch at geocities.com>
>>Subject: frisian query
>>
>>Dear Reinhard Hahn,
>>
>>Congratulations on the Lowlands Languages site - an excelent resource -
>>I've bookmarked it and will go back to look at it in future.
>>
>>For the moment, I wonder if you can help me - I'm preparing a conference
>>paper on English & I'm far from a Library - perhaps you could give me some
>>quick information.
>>
>>The aim of the paper is to suggest that the spread of originally-objective
>>*you* to subject uses may have been a pragmatic strategy to use an
>>'oblique' form that had less face-threatening associations than the
>>original subjective form *ye*.
>>
>>Dutch polite *u* is probably partly based on a similar plural objective
>>form, and Frisian *jo* certainly is.
>>
>>In order to make a nice presentation I would need to know the following
>>(which I forgot to note down when I was in London, working in the British
>>Library):
>>
>>Middle Frisian 2nd person singular: Nominative (1)_____   Accusative (2)
>>______
>>Middle Frisian 2nd person plural: Nominative *ji*   Accusative *jo*
>>
>>Modern Frisian 2nd person singular (intimate): Nominative (3) ____
>>Accusative (4) ____
>>Modern Frisian 2nd person singular (polite): Nominative *jo*   Accusative
>>*jo*
>>Modern Frisian 2nd person plural: *jim(me)* (new form)
>>
>>Hoping you can help,
>>
>>Best Wishes,
>>
>>Richard Dury

As you state it, the case is not quite correct. I'll summarise my findings
,based on a paper (in Dutch) on Frisian pronouns, by Kloeke.)

In very old Frisian indeed _ji_, objective _ju_ are found for 2nd person
plural, but already in Old Frisian (before 1500) this form was used as a
polite form of address, while the strictly plural meaning was conveyed by
_jemma_, _jem_ and the like, which derives, probably, from *ji + men ("you
men", with normal Old Frisian drop of final -n, cf. Dutch _jullie_ from
*jij + lie(den). (So cf. French as well, where "vous" is used for polite
address as well.) So "jimme" (both obj and subj, as in Old Frisian, is
quite old, and not a new form! "ji" appears a lot in Old Frisian letters
and acts, and later in Middle Frisian as well.
(colloquial 2 nd person is

Old Frisian thu - thi
Middle West Frisian do(u) - di(j)
Modern West Frisian do - dy ( [do:]-[dE.I], in Eastern dialects and in
Hylpen and on the islands [du]-[di]) )

So Middle Frisian:
polite: y (or ji) - joe, as in late Old West Frisian (round 1550)
plural: jimme - jimme
But already in 1774: jou - jou, where the objective has crept into the
subject-position (but even in modern times the clitic form is "je" [j@],
though mostly as a "generic" use), this was helped by the fact that the
possesive form had also become "jo(u)" in certain dialects, as in the
plural pronouns normally one has no distinction between possesive and
objective, cf foar jimme - jimme h{u^}s, foar {u'}s -  {u'}s h{u^}s, etc.
In Modern West Frisian all the polite forms are _jo_ [jo:]. And the plural
2nd person is jim or jimme, depending on speed..

So the polite forms, although originally stemming from the plural, has
developed independently, and it's the only pronoun in West Frisian where
the objective has crept into the subject-position. The fact that "jimme" is
unchangeable is old, and the word must have been "petrified" almost
immediately..

Hope this helped,

Henno Brandsma

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