LL-L "Language contacts" 2002.01.27 (07) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 27.JAN.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "Aviad Stier" <aviad2001 at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language contacts" 2002.01.27 (03) [E]

Hello!
Stan Levinson wrote:
>From: Stan Levinson <stlev99 at yahoo.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Language contacts" 2002.01.25 (03) [E]
>
>Regarding Roger's comment below, these are quite
>standard Yiddish forms, alternating with "a gutn" and
>"gut...".
>Stan
>
> > I'm sorry, the article was not wrong at all, it were
> > just typing errors
> > of mine.
> >
> > Quoting correctly, and checked twice:
> > "A gitn", "Git sjabbes".
end quote

As far as I recall  I didn't actually comment on the subject of "gut" as
opposed to "gutn", only on the misprint in the article. However, since
it
was brought up, I never heard "a gutn Shabbes" or "a gitn Shabbes",
though I
think in "official" (that is, YIVO Yiddish) "shabbes" is considered
masculine. However, many people refer to it as feminine ("a gute
Shabbes")
or neuter ("a gut shabbes").

Reinhard/Ron added:

>By the way, do not let the alternation between _u_ and _i_ (_gut_ ~
>_git_) confuse you.  It depends on the dialect; for instance in
>Lithuanian (Litvak) Yiddish it is _gut_ [gut], and in Polish Yiddish it
>is _git_ [git] 'good', 'well'.  Apparently, in the latter type of
>dialect, /u/ first became fronted to /ü/ (probably still in Germany) and
>then came to be unrounded (probably in Slavic-speaking environments).
>The exemplary beauty of the Yiddish writing system based on Hebrew
>letters is that it is so abstract that the spelling is the same,
>irrespective of the dialect.  When you romanize Yiddish, you are forced
>to decide on the dialect.  This was one of the main reasons for the
>failure of a movement to use only Roman letters for Yiddish in the early
>20th century, or even a little earlier.
End quote

Absulutely correct, but a small correction: in Yiddish there actually is
an
orthographic distinction between "gut" and "git", since in Yiddish -
unlike
Hebrew - all vowels are written in (the exception being the numerous
Hebrew
words that got incorporated into Yiddish, and as a general rule keep
their
original spelling). A problematic vowel, however, is the "kometz aleph",
which is pronounced in different dialects as either a medium length O or
U,
so that a day in Yiddish may be a "tog" or a "tug". You were very
correct,
however,  about the rather astonishing fact that, over the years, a
language
spoken all across a continent and with dozens of dialects and no central
regulatory body (YIVO is a very late addition) managed to create a
surprisingly uniform orthography, almost spontaneously.
Aviad Stier
Brussels, Belgium

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Aviad,

> A problematic vowel, however, is the "kometz aleph",
> which is pronounced in different dialects as either a medium length O or > U, so that a day in Yiddish may be a "tog" or a "tug".

Is that really a problem?  As far as I know, it tends to be the
_git_-type dialects that are also _tug_-type dialects; thus, u > i, and
o > u, and the distinction remains.  The distinction that gets lost in
these dialects is /u/ and /i/, since both become _i_ (e.g., _git_ 'good'
vs _lid_ 'song, cf. Litvak _gut_ vs _lid_).

> I
> think in "official" (that is, YIVO Yiddish) "shabbes" is considered
> masculine. However, many people refer to it as feminine ("a gute > Shabbes")
> or neuter ("a gut shabbes").

Yes, and Weinreich lists it as masculine.  Aside from the set salutation
_gut shabes!_, I have never heard or seen _shabes_ treated as anything
but masculine.  I have always thought of _gut shabes!_ as some sort of
"contraction," much as happens in some German salutations, such as _Gut
Holz!_ rather than grammatically correct _Gutes Holz!_ ("Good wood!"), a
salutation used among players of skittle (or "ninepin bowling").  Also,
Low Saxon abounds with this sort of shortening, which is made easier
since adjectival suffixes are on their way out, i.e., have become
optional in many dialects and speech modes (masculine _de grote Mann_ ~
_de groot Mann_ 'the tall man', feminine _de grote Fru_ ~ _de groot Fru_
'the tall woman', neuter _dat grote Huus_ ~ _dat groot Huus_ 'the large
house'), especially in salutations, such as (feminine) _Gode Nacht!_ ~
_Good Nacht!_ 'Good night!' (also in some German dialects _Gut nacht!_
instead of _Gute Nacht!_).  (Thus, Low Saxon is undergoing a development
that was completed in its sister languages English and Scots long ago.)

Bagrist un gezunt (~ gezint) zolt ir zayn!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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