LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (04) [E]
Lowlands-L
sassisch at yahoo.com
Mon Jun 10 20:52:35 UTC 2002
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L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (01) [E]
David Elsworth wrote:
> I have illustrated each verb with its
> past
> forms as shown below:
>
> VRAGEN vroegen gevragen
> SLAAN sloegen geslagen
> DRAGEN droegen gedragen
The correct past participle of _vragen_ in
Dutch is actually _gevraagd_ The rest of
the information above is correct.
> Of particular interest is the Dutch verb 'slaan,' whose infinitive seems
> to
> be the odd one out. Was there ever a point where this verb was written
> as
> slagen?
There is a Dutch verb _slagen_ and
that can be used with the same meaning
as _slaan_, but usually isn't. It is mostly
used in the meaning of 'having success'.
My 'Etymologisch Woordenboek' (by
dr. J. de Vries, Antwerp 1964) actually
mentions _slagen_ as a younger form
of _slaan_. It probably derived from
the past participle of _slaan_.
I believe that in Flanders _slagen_ is in
fact used in the same way as _slaan_,
allthough there also _slaan_ is the normal
form.
Then the equivalents in Zeeuws:
vraege(n) - vroog - evroge(n)
slaee(n) - sloog - esloge(n)
draege(n) - droog - edroge(n)
Some remarks:
* in most dialects the past participles
have the prefix _e-_, but some dialects
have _ge-_.
* older forms for the past tense of
_slaee(n)_ are _sleeg_ and _slieg_ and
an older form for the past tense of
_draege(n)_ is _dreeg_.
* older forms for the past participles
are _edrege(n)_ and _eslege(n)_.
* two of these verbs also have weak
equivalents, but these are not used
as much as the strong ones. They are:
vraege(n) - vraeg(en)de - evroge(n)
draege(n) - draeg(en)de - edroge(n)
Regards,
Marco
----------
From: JL <jl at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (01) [E]
>From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
>Subject: etymnology
>
>Dear Ron, Lowlanders
>
>I am particularly interested in the german verbs fragen, schlagen and
>tragen
>which have the past forms fragten, schlugen and trugen, and also the
>past
>participles gefragt, gesclagen and getragen.
>
>The other night I was looking at a table of Dutch verbs and I observed
>that
>the equivalent Dutch verbs vragen, slaan and dragen displayed similar
>trends
>albeit with certain differences. I have illustrated each verb with its
>past
>forms as shown below:
>
>VRAGEN vroegen gevragen
>SLAAN sloegen geslagen
>DRAGEN droegen gedragen
''gevragen" is wrong, it is "gevraagd"
Best Regards,
Jaap Liek
----------
From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (01) [E]
> From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
> Subject: etymnology
>
> Dear Ron, Lowlanders
>
> I am particularly interested in the german verbs fragen, schlagen and
> tragen
> which have the past forms fragten, schlugen and trugen, and also the
> past
> participles gefragt, gesclagen and getragen.
>
> The other night I was looking at a table of Dutch verbs and I observed
> that
> the equivalent Dutch verbs vragen, slaan and dragen displayed similar
> trends
> albeit with certain differences. I have illustrated each verb with its
> past
> forms as shown below:
>
> VRAGEN vroegen gevragen
gevraagd!(dutch)
> SLAAN sloegen geslagen
> DRAGEN droegen gedragen
Dear David,
In Flanders it is:
VRAGEN vroegen gevraagd
SLAAN sloegen geslegen
DRAGEN droegen gedregen
> As can be seen, this group of verbs are clearly irregular in Dutch and
> all
> exhibit the same vowel changes in the corresponding past tense, as do
> the
> equivalent german verbs. However, in German, whilst schalgen and tragen
> are
> strong irregular verbs, fragen is in fact a weak verb, which is somewhat
> quite puzzling.
>
> Of particular interest is the Dutch verb 'slaan,' whose infinitive seems
> to
> be the odd one out. Was there ever a point where this verb was written
> as
> slagen?
>
> I would be interested in hearing from other members as to how the verbs
> for
> ask, hit and pull, conjugate in their own languages. As far as I can
> gather,
> past particples in Low Saxon do not add the prefix, 'ge,' to the past
> participle.
>
> Regards
> David Elsworth.
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Grammar
>
> Dear David,
>
>> I would be interested in hearing from other members as to how the verbs > for
>> ask, hit and pull, conjugate in their own languages.
>
> You got some English interference there from the meaning of the cognate
> 'to drag'. That would be 'ask', 'hit' and *'carry'. (_tragen_/_dragen_
> 'carry')
>
>> As far as I can gather,
>> past particples in Low Saxon do not add the prefix, 'ge,' to the past
>> participle.
>
> That depends on the dialect. Some dialects have retained the _ge-_.
>
> Anyway, here are the equivalents in Northern Low Saxon (Low German):
>
> FRAGEN fraag' ~ fröög'* (ge)fraagt
> SLAGEN ~ SLAAN sloog' ~ slöög'* (ge)slagen ~ (ge)slaan
> DRAGEN droog' ~ dröög'* (ge)dragen
Flemish:
VRAGEN vroeg gevraagd
SLAGEN slagen gelaagd (succeeded)
SLAAN sloeg geslagen (hit)
DRAGEN droeg gedregen
> * ~ = occurs in variation with
> oo and öö here are diphthongs: [o.U] ~ [9.Y]/[9.I], ought to be
> written <ou> and <öü>/<öi> respectively.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
Groetjes
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene
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