LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.27 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 27.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "Leonard Okhotchinski" <ok_lennie at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.26 (05) [E]

Holger wrote:
>No doubt such a comparative list can be helpful for several purposes but
>I
>think it can also mislead because it doesn't mention that in distinct
>languages a word can undergo a different developement. For example: In
>Eastern Friesland Low Saxon the word for skin is "hu:d" but we also have
>the word "skin" and this is exactly the same word as in English but it
>has
>developed a modified meaning (= dandruff, scurf, peeled skin). Somewhere
>on
>the table I read the word "vent" for "man, male person". This word
>(fent)
>also exists in EFLS but it means "boy".
>According to the situation, the intention of the speaker etc. there are
>several possibilities for example to express "to kill" or "to murder"
>but
>most of them aren't one word but expressions that can be considered to
>be
>phraseologisms. This is true for a lot of other expressions, too. But
>these
>won't ever been picked up into such a comparative list (don't explain
>why -
>I know) but they are very characteristic for the language (especially
>the
>non-standardized languages.
>Nevertheless I'll mail a EFLS version of the list.

The rule of this Swadesh game is to choose the commonest word, semantic
shifts don't count. There may be two equally often used lexemes with the
same meaning, then there is a procedure for this case, too (they both
count). The idea is to compare how much of the inherited Germanic (in
this
case) vocabulary survived. The method is based on the theory that
changes in
the core vocabulary occur at the same rate. Then, supposedly, we can
measure
how long ago the languages started developing separately. There is a
formula
with logs that I don't remember, but it can be looked up in any intro
book
on comparative studies. Ideally, it's like carbon dating.
I'm sorry about this long explanation, but I thought it might be useful
for
the people who contribute data on their native languages and are "just
speakers" without any linguistic training - that is the best kind of
speakers:)
It would be fascinating to see what the lists would look like for such a
closely related and constantly contacting group.

For some mysterious reasons I haven't been able to send my posting about
the
"horse sound". The first time it got lost, so maybe there is more to it
than
bad luck... Anyway, last week somebody (sorry, I can't remember who it
was)
mentioned that in his area if they want to tell a horse to stop, they
say
RRRRR! This sound is believed to have come from Russia along with a
breed of
horses.
The sound used in Russian for that purpose is a partially devoiced
bilabial
vibrant, transcribed as "tpru". My question was: What is the exact
quality
of the RRRR! sound?

Regards,
Leonard Okhotchinski

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Leonard,

Sorry again about the lost (?) submission.  I don't know what happened
there.

Thank you very much for the explanation (above).  No apologies
required.  It's a great introduction/refresher for us, and your input
now and always is very much appreciated.

I'll put some more data into the table sometime later today.
(http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm)

Leonard, you wrote ...

> The rule of this Swadesh game is to choose the commonest word,
> semantic shifts don't count.

I think this has been the problem for one of us, and in some cases it
*may* be difficult to tell which is most common.

So you are saying then, that we should find *cognates* if you say
"semantic shifts don't count"?

As you can see, Holger (Eastern Friesland) put several possibilities in
some cases.  For instance, under 017 ("man") he writes _ke:erl,
manminsk(e), man_.  I (Northern) wrote just _Mann_, but I could also
have given _Keerl, Kierl, Mannsminsch, Mann_.  Holger wrote under 010
("many") _'n büelt, fööl, mennigh, mennergh_, where I wrote just _veel_
but could have written _'n Barg, 'n groot Deel, veel, 'n Hümpel, 'n
Hupen, gewaltig, asig, mennig_.  Should I have written _mennig_ because
it is a cognate of English _many_?  I had just "instinctively" chosen
_Mann_ and _veel_ because I felt they were "basic" (even if someone may
prove that they are not used as frequently as alternatives by some
speakers.

An example is to choose Lowlands Saxon _mennig_ for 'many' because it is
a cognate of "many", although _mennig_ is more often used to denote
something more specialized like "many a ..." (similar to German
_manche(r/s)_.  I guess another such case would be -- I am not sure if
it was you among others who shares my interest in Yiddish -- to choose
for Yiddish _fil_ for "many/much" if German _viel_, Lowlands Saxon
_veel_, Dutch _veel_, etc., are already listed.  In my experience (and
in my less than perfect usage) _fil_ may be used less than _a sakh_ (_a
sach_) to denote "many/much" in Yiddish.  So, would I have to enter
_fil_ rather than _a sakh_ if we had a Yiddish column?  As you can tell,
I thought I knew but now feel a bit confused.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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