LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.05.12 (01) [D/E/LS]

Sun May 12 21:47:57 UTC 2002

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 12.MAY.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
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From: "W!M" <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.05.11 (01) [E]

Hoi!

Alleen zwerk herken ik, Aan het zwerk, daar hangen de wolken. De donkere
lucht.
(In Oost Nederlands wordt dat vaak zwark inderdaad. )
Over weer valt veel te praten. In Salland mocht je vroeger nog wel
Donders!
Zeggen , als vloek, maar geen bliksem! Dat was een heel erge vloek! Is
dat
ook zo in Noord Duitsland etc?
Wim.
 Moi!!
Üüt disse lyste ken ik allenig Zwark. An't zwark door ang' de wolkng. De
donkere locht.
De valt een ele bande te seng over 't weer. Ier in Salland moch Ie
vrogger
nog weh "Donders" zeng. Moar gien "Bliksem!" Dat was een ele arge vlüük.
De
Ollander begröp ik da nie. (Maj ier agenne gien Bliksen zeng?). Is dat
netzo
in Noord Düütslan?
Wimme (van de Skoele meester).

W!M Wim Verdoold wkv at home.nl

----------

From: "" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Amalgam

Beste lieeglanners,

Regarding the berries I would like to add that we consistently say
"bees" for one berry, and "beezn" for multiple berries. Except ! There
is one type of berries that reflects an older form of the word,
methinks, which are :

"kraakebaezn" (litterally cracking berries, blue wild berries that can
be found in forests, named thus because of the sound they make when you
eat them ?)

This form would have to evolve from "bijs" < ? "bise" ?

However, fear of homonyms could also have played here because we have
another word "bijs", which denotes "a shower of rain", "een bazje
reiger".

Which brings me to Ron's weather terms...

1) swark (or something similar) is not known here in Brabant, but I
assume it to be the same as Dutch : zwerk = hemel ?
2) sultry, oppressive heat is expressed by saying; "'t es zoe modder he"
or also "'t es laf weer"
3) maybe not exactly what you mean, but the flickering lights that can
be seen lighting the horizon and the sky in the evening after a hot day,
are called "aalichtn" < "heilichten". Herein the first part of the word
is the same as dutch : "heiig weer"...I vaguely seem to remember "hei"
was related to :
a) heat, hitte
or
b) haren (= to sharpen), like in "haargetouw" = device to sharpen a tool
But I could be wrong...I'm not home right now, and I can't verify my
statements...sorry for that...
4) nope, we don't have "oldfranksch" or "aatvranks" as it should sound
in my dialect...we always say : "aabakken" < "aatbakken" < "oudbakken"
5) against the thread, against-brush-like, is "tegenligeur"...an exotic
sounding word that I have never been able to find any related words
for...but, which sounds like being derived from french "rigeur"
???...sometimes another term is used "krewellig" (adverb), but with a
slightly different meaning : exclusively said of somebody who is not
feeling at ease, who is slightly nervous, not acting "smooth", and
always looking for a path (even illegal and obscure ones) in order to
achieve his/her goal anyway...in short : a tormented machiavellist avant
la lettre ? *s*

Also this : an ant is "ne mierezeiker" in Brabantish...again the
connotation with urine...

Bye for now !

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: Lexicon 2002.05.11 (01)[E]

Ron wrote:

...(2) Smutt [smUt] 'sultry, oppressive heat' (cf. _Smutt_ [smUt]
'dirt',
    'filth', cognate of English "smut" and German _Schmutz_, according
to
    the _Herkunftsduden_ related to Dutch _mot_ 'fine rain' [+ ancient
    _s-_)...

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Moin, Leeglanners, Ron,

dat Woord "smut(t)" givvt' noch bie'n "Smuttool" (gebratener Aal, fried
eel), overs ook bien "Smut(t)je" (Schiffskoch, cook on a ship). Dat hett
woll ook wat mit Waarmst to dauhn- viellicht höört dor ook noch "Smolt"
(Schmalz, engl.: lard) un dat hauchdüütsch Woord "schmelzen, Schmelze"
(engl.: to melt, enamel) tau?

Greutens

Fiete.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Wim:

> Over weer valt veel te praten.
> De valt een ele bande te seng over 't weer.

Ja, dat kannst wull seggen.  Up dat Flack hett us Spraak veel Knööf
{power}.

Yes, it is definitely true that much can be said about weather.  Our
language (Low Saxon) has quite an inventory in that subject area.

> In Salland mocht je vroeger nog wel Donders!
> Zeggen , als vloek, maar geen bliksem! Dat was een heel erge vloek! Is dat
> ook zo in Noord Duitsland etc?
> Ier in Salland moch Ie vrogger
> nog weh "Donders" zeng. Moar gien "Bliksem!" Dat was een ele arge vlüük. De
> Ollander begröp ik da nie. (Maj ier agenne gien Bliksen zeng?). Is dat
> netzo in Noord Düütslan?

Ja, Wim, liek so is dat, un nich bloots ehrmaals: "Dunner!" ~ "Donner!",
in de feernwestlichen Dialekten sachs ook "Donder!"
(In de mehrsten "oosterschen" Dialekten hebbt wi "d"-Assimileern achter
"n": nd > nn.)
'n Paar Minschen seggt ook "Dunnerwedder!" (liek as düütsch
"Donnerwetter!"), faken as Flöök, af un an as 'n Uutdruck vun 't
Verbaast-Wesen.  Man in de mehrste Dialekten bedüüdt "Dunnerwedder" ook
"Lawai", "Krach", "Stried", "Schandaal", or 'Schimp", "Schellen", u.s.w.
(In most of the dialects east of the border, /d/ assimilates to directly
preceding /n/, hence nd > nn.)

Yes, Wim, and not only in former times.  In Low Saxon (Low German) of
Northern Germany, too, you use _Dunner!_ ~ _Donner!_ (in farwestern
dialects probably also _Donder!_), literally 'Thunder!' as a swearword,
to express anger or surprise.  Some people might say _Dunnerwedder!_
(cf. German _Donnerwetter_, "thunder weather") instead.  But in most
dialects _Dunnerwedder_ means '(verbal) fight', 'argument', 'row', or
'(loud) scolding', etc.

Luc:

> Regarding the berries I would like to add that we consistently say
> "bees" for one berry, and "beezn" for multiple berries. Except ! There is
> one type of berries that reflects an older form of the word, methinks,
> which are :
>
> "kraakebaezn" (litterally cracking berries, blue wild berries that can be
> found in forests, named thus because of the sound they make when you eat
> them ?)

I wonder which berry that is.  Two candidates come to mind:

(1) _Fragraria virides_ (German _Knackbeere_, LS *_Knackbeer_ (?),
"crack berry"), a type of wild strawberry.  I don't know its English
name.

(2) _Symphoricarpos albus_ (_Caprifoliaceae_, Dutch
_Kamperfoeliefamilie_).  It's _sneeuwbes_ in Dutch, _Sneebeer_ in Low
Saxon, _Schneebeere_ in German, and _snowberry_ in English.  It bears
(poisonous) white berries that "explode" when you squeeze or throw
them.  As children we knew them as German _Knallerbsen_ and Low Saxon
_Knallarften_ ("bang peas"), the same name denoting a type of relatively
harmless "firework" that needs no lighting, that you throw on the ground
to achieve a cracking sound ("toy torpedo" in English, I think).

> 2) sultry, oppressive heat is expressed by saying; "'t es zoe modder he"
> or also "'t es laf weer"

I think in Low Saxon some people also call it _muddelig_ (from _Mudd_ ~
_Modder_ 'mud'), but that refers to darkening before a storm.  Perhaps
_Smutt_ in reference to oppressive heat also originally implied
darkening.

In most Low Saxon (Low German) dialects, _laff_ means 'tasteless',
'stale', but in some northwestern dialects it also means 'without
strength', 'weakened', 'exhausted', 'insipid'.  Cf. Dutch _laf_
'cowardly', 'insipid'.  I suppose _laf weer_ in your language variety
originally referred to the way oppressive heat makes people feel:
without strength.

> 5) against the thread, against-brush-like, is "tegenligeur"...an exotic
> sounding word that I have never been able to find any related words
> for...but, which sounds like being derived from french
> "rigeur" ???...sometimes another term is used "krewellig" (adverb), but
> with a slightly different meaning : exclusively said of somebody who is
> not feeling at ease, who is slightly nervous, not acting "smooth", and
> always looking for a path (even illegal and obscure ones) in order to
> achieve his/her goal anyway...in short : a tormented machiavellist avant
> la lettre ? *s*

Actually, these _wedderdäänsch_, _wedderbö(r)stig_ and _upsternaatsch_ I
gave denote 'obstinate', something like Dutch _halstarrig_ or _koppig_,
and -- I love it! -- Scots _contermacious_.

Keep having fun in China, Luc!

Fiete:

> Dat Woord "smut(t)" givvt' noch bie'n "Smuttool" (gebratener Aal, fried
> eel), overs ook bien "Smut(t)je" (Schiffskoch, cook on a ship). Dat hett
> woll ook wat mit Waarmst to dauhn- viellicht höört dor ook noch "Smolt"
> (Schmalz, engl.: lard) un dat hauchdüütsch Woord "schmelzen, Schmelze"
> (engl.: to melt, enamel) tau?

Ik glööv', "Smutt" hangt mit "Sutt" (~ "Sott" = düütsch "Ruß") tosamen,
as ook ingelsch _smut_ 'a *smudge* of soot'.

I have a feeling that _Smutt_ is associated with soot, hence also
English "smut" 'a *smudge* of soot'.

Kumpelmenten/Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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