LL-L "Orthography" 2003.02.24 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject:  LL-L "Orthography" 2003.02.23 (12) [E]

Gary wrote:

"Not posted for a while, but couldn't resist. I was
recently 'correcting' a paper written by a friend, and
one thing that I noticed was that she'd used '-ize'
and 'judgment', however forms such as 'travelling'.
Being British I changed the spellings of the former to
'-ise' and 'judgement' in the need to be consistent
with either British or American English. Forms with
-ize just look too American to me even though I'm
possibly being a bit pedantic."

This is basically the point that I had set out to make originally, but which
got wrapped around my neck - to use a Nottingham expression - and turned
into a protracted and heated debate.

As far as I am concerned (and I'm sure someone will expend the time and
energy to find evidence to prove me wrong), _judgment_ and _-ize_ are
perceived as blatant Americanisms, as inappropriate in a British context as
_color_ or _defense_. Whether they are etymologically or not is irrelevant:
I sincerely believe that most "British English" users see the issue that
way, if they notice at all. (And that is what we are really debating here -
the impossibility of defining majority usage.)

The most probable explanation is that both _judgment_ and _judgement_ were
once current in British English but that with the steady injection of
American English (which uses _judgment_, _-ize_ exclusively) into the
cultural bloodstream via Hollywood, the mass media and the internet there
there has been a kind of backlash with users of British English identifying
with the perceived "non-American" version. British English is, in effect,
trying to distance its spelling from American English - which is no bad
thing.

(One last point of contention for Ian and Chris - Hansard as you will both
be well aware is emphatically *not* a dictionary of conventional British
English usage and should not be presented as such to those vulnerable
language learners, as it is in fact a glorified transcription agency. It may
have editors and internal conventions and it may be linked to (but not a
part of) the British Government - it is in fact part of Parliament - but
that doesn't give it any higher authority over British English spelling than
a dictionary purchasable from WHSmith. And dictionaries, as has already been
pointed out, are torn between reflecting popular usage and the Academie
anglaise approach of sanctioning "appropriate usage". Furthermore, just to
be mischievous, if you *do* consider Hansard to be the arbiter of spelling
standards, Northern Ireland Hansard consistently uses _-ise_ and _judgement_
and other British English spellings so which Hansard is right and which
wrong; see http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/record/reports/021014.htm#1 and
http://www.ni-assembly.gov.uk/education/evidence/moe010510i.htm for the
oh-so-necessary evidence.)

I can feel the words contorting around my neck again... :)

Touché!

Criostóir.

----------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject:  LL-L "Orthography" 2003.02.23 (05) [E/LS]

Ian, Ron, Chris, Gary

Chris demanded evidence for my view that _judgement_ is a near-standard on
Fleet Street. As I have a little more time, please consult the following:

"Judgement Day" -
education.guardian.co.uk/specialreports/teachingawards2000/
story/0,5500,390584,00.html

"Judgement Reserved in Discrimination Case" -
education.guardian.co.uk/racism/ story/0,10795,530355,00.html

"Moore admits error of judgement" - media.guardian.co.uk/marketingandpr/
story/0,7494,575261,00.html

Or if you wish to go by circulation and political orientation:

Today's Sun - http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,3-2003080420_2,00.html
Daily Mail - http://www.ce-review.org/00/27/craske27.html (see quote)
Daily Mirror -
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12224355&method=full&
siteid=50143
Daily Telegraph - www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/
money/2002/11/03/cnmicro03.xml;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/main.jhtml?xml=/global/2002/04/16/mortg5.x
ml
Independent - argument.independent.co.uk/regular_columnists/

Most websites require registration to search (particularly those owned by
Rupert Murdoch), which is why this list is far from exhaustive and why I
have given three example from the Guardian.

If Chris requires any more evidence I will be pleased to find it for him
when I have the time.

Go raibh maith agat

Criostóir.

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From: Ian James Parsley <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
Subject:  Orthography

Gary,

At risk of running a little off-topic, there is a
reason for _Albtraum_.

Essentially compare 'die Not' with 'das Tod', 'die
Welt' with 'das Held', 'die Stadt' with 'das Rad'. In
all cases of course the final consonant is 'devoiced'.
But only in the case of feminines is it written to
reflect this.

The prefix 'Alp-' was deemed 'wrong' for this reason,
I believe.

Whether it was really worth going to the hassle not
even of changing it but simply making it 'optional' is
another matter...

I'll leave it to some others to bring this loop back
to Low Saxon!

Regards,

=====
------------------
Ian James Parsley
www.ianjamesparsley.net
+44 (0)77 2095 1736
JOY - "Jesus, Others, You"

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Ian:

> Essentially compare 'die Not' with 'das Tod', 'die
> Welt' with 'das Held', 'die Stadt' with 'das Rad'.

Yes, but it is masculine _der Tod_ 'the death' and _der Held_ 'the hero'.

'trouble' (fem.): die Not - pl. die Nöte
'death' (masc.): der Tod - gen. des Todes
'town' (fem.): die Stadt - pl. die Städte
'wheel' (neut.): das Rad - pl. die Räder
'hero' (masc.): der Held - pl. die Helden
'world' (fem.): die Welt - pl. die Welten
'tent' (neut.): das Zelt - pl. die Zelte
'path' (masc.): der Pfad - pl. die Pfade
'beard' (masc.): der Bart - pl. die Bärte
'calf' (neut.): das Kalb - pl. die Kälber
'nightmare' (masc.): der Alp > Alb - die Alpe > Albe*

* obsolete or rarely used - usually _Alptraum_ > _Albtraum_ (_Traum_
'dream')

Final _-b_, _-d_ and _-g_ do not occur in feminine forms because those would
usually be _-be_, _-de_ and _-ge_ respectively.

Cf. Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German):

'trouble' (fem.): de Noot (should be Nood) - pl. de Nööt, nödigen 'to
trouble/invite'
'death' (masc.): de Doot (should be Dood) - dat. d'n Dode (~ d'n Doot,
should be d'n Dood)
'town' (fem.): de Stadt (should be Stad(d)) - pl. de Städer
'wheel' (neut.): dat Rad - pl. de Roed(er)
'hero' (masc.): de Held - pl. de Helden ~ Hellen
'world' (fem.): de Welt - pl. de Welten
'tent' (neut.): dat Telt - pl. de Telten
'path' (masc.): de Patt (should be Pad(d)) - pl. de Padden
'beard' (masc.): de Baart ~ Boort (~ Baard) - pl. de Baarten ~ Boorten (~
Baarden)
'calf' (neut.): dat Kalf (should be Kalv) - pl. de Kalver

('nightmare' is irrelevant; it is _Nachtmahr_.)

Final _-d_ and _-t_ are problematic, since (unlike in German) non-initial
/t/ is *never* aspirated* and, especially following another consonant, is
realized or perceived as [d] or [t], except that only /d/, not /t/,
assimilates to a preceding /l/ or /n/ (e.g., Held > Hellen, Kind > Kinner).

* Most British dialects (like most German dialects) aspirate voiceless stops
initially (before vowels) and between vowels, while American English
dialects (like most Lowlands Saxon dialects) aspirate them only initially
(before vowels).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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