LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.01.13 (08) [E]

Tue Jan 14 00:14:05 UTC 2003

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject:  LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.01.11 (07) [E]

> From: Ian James Parsley <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
> Subject:  Afrikaans v. Dutch

Dear Ian,
As  our friend from Kortrijk (Denis Dujardin) explained so well,
Afrikaans sounds and looks very familiar with our Flemish.These were my
first reactions:
>
> Dear All,
>
> Please excuse me covering ground we have no doubt
> already largely covered, but after a recent trip to
> the Cape (I visit Southern Africa fairly frequently) I
> would like to share my observations on Afrikaans with
> the list and invite comments/corrections. My notes
> focus on its opposition to Dutch.
>
> Spelling:
> Spelling has clearly been simplified. 'C' and 'Z' have
> been lost almost entirely, replaced by 'S' ('sentrum',
> 'selsius'); though 'SCH' becomes 'SK' (miskien)
V: miskien (and fi for school also "skole")
> , and
> 'CH'/'CHT' both become 'G' ('agt', 'regteg')
V "acht" is  pronounced like "aht"  and every "g" is pronounced like
"h".
> .
> 'V' is often voiced and written 'W'; 'IJ' becomes 'Y';
> (eg for both 'lewenstyd').
> Final 'N', post-consonantal 'T' or post-vocalic 'V'
> are lost/altered, eg 'wes', 'sewe', 'glo'. However,
> 'N' can 'reappear', as in 'lewenstyd', 'sewentien'.
> 'IE' and 'E' often switch, eg 'betjie'.
In V we have "bitji"
> In many cases 'OO' has become
(?)
>  'EU' (eg 'deur',
> 'seun').
V: zeune
> Spelling of place names is of course another matter,
> many (MuiZenberg, BlOEmfontein) clearly remain Dutch
> (as this was official to 1925).
> 'Borrowed' words are often respelled to fit the
> Afrikaans system (eg 'suksesvul').
V: suksesvul
>
> Pronunciation:
> Afrikaans actually *sounds* little like Dutch
Here you mean Dutch from the Nord-Netherlands, not the south (Flanders)
>  to my
> ears, it is not 'robotic', generally pronounced
> further forward in the mouth, eg 'oo' and 'ee' in
> 'hoop' or 'meneer' are actually pronounced much more
> as in English. Typically there is a 'y-glide' before
> any 'E' combination (so 'minyeer' above).
In V we spell it like "hoôpe( or hope in another meaning)" and "meneêr"
(but you can write it as menyeer)
>
> Vocabulary:
> I have to say locals like to protest that vocabulary
> is heavily influenced by other languages, but to me it
> is almost entirely Dutch
Perhaps Flemish or Zeelandic?
>  in origin. Many words of
> other origin assumed to come from other languages
> (particularly the French of the Huguenots) are
> actually present in Dutch as well (eg
> 'plesier/plezier'
An 11th century word in France
> ). There are of course semantic
> differences and some core words do differ ('want',
> 'slegs').
>
> Pronouns:
> These are greatly simplified. Plural forms
> and polite 2nd person are the same throughout, ie
> 'ons' for 'we/us/our'
V: oes
> , 'hulle'
V: huldre (for their)
>  for 'they/them/their'
> etc. Singular forms only distinguish 'direct' form (eg
> 'ek' for 'I'
V: ik(ke)
> , 'sy' for 'she'
V; zie/heur/heur
> ) from 'objective' and
> possessive (so 'my' doubles as both 'me' and 'my';
> 'haar' doubles as in English for 'her'). Only the 3rd
> person sing masc has the full three forms ('hy/hom/sy'
V: hij(ie)/(h)em/zijn(zin)
> for 'he/him/his').
>
> Nouns:
> No gender. Definite article: 'die' (also used
> for 'these'/'those'); indefinite: ''n';
> demonstrative/indefinite singular: 'dit' (or
> occasionally, as relative, 'wat').
>
> Verb:
> Hugely simplified. For regular verbs all forms have
> been levelled entirely, so there is just one form
> throughout, with past participle formed with
> initial 'ge-' (although as in German/Dutch this is
> unnecessary where a prefix already exists). Thus 'Ek
> bestel/studeer'
V: Ik bestelle/studere
> - 'I order/study'; 'Ek het
> bestel/gestudeer'
V: Ik et besteld/gestudeerd (estudeerd)
> - 'I have ordered/studied'; 'Ek word
> bestel/gestudeer' - 'I am ordered/studied'; 'Ek moet
> bestel/studeer'
V: Ik moete  bestell'/studeern
> - 'I must order/study'; 'Ek sal bestel
> - 'I shall order'; 'Ek gaan bestel'
V: Ik ga bestell'
> - 'I am going to
> order'; 'Ek wou bestel'
V: Ik wou/wilde bestell'
>  - 'I would/wanted to order'.
> The two common non-modal auxiliary verbs have two
> forms, the root/infinitive ('wees', 'h^e') and verb
> form (all persons: 'is', 'het'). Only 'to be' uses a
> simple past ('was'), 'to have' has irregular 'gehad'.
>
> It seemed to me that even these two non-modal
> auxiliaries actually were simplified further by some
> speakers - 'ek moet dit het' (not 'h^e'), 'ek sal daar
> is' (not 'wees').
>
> Syntax - largely as Dutch. 'Ek moet dit h^e
> gestudeer/gestudeer h^e' -
V: Ik moete da gestudeerd hen
>  'I must have studied it'.
> Borrowed either from French or English (latter most
> likely), the 'going to' future exists - 'Ons gaan
> wees'
V: always with "gaon"
Ik gao je da vertell'....
> . All question words seem to add '-eer' in all
> locations: 'Watteer het jy gekoop?' 'Wanneer
In V, as in D: wanneer
>  sal hy
> ankom?'
>
> Idiom - Quite different from Dutch and obviously
> Anglicized, making the language impenetrable probably
> even to Dutch speakers. Even basic things differ: 'hy
> is 'n taalarts'
V: Ie is 'n....

> (he is *a* dentist); 'hy kom van
> Engeland' (he comes *from* England)
V: Ie kom' van Engeland
Verre van huus (far from home)
> .
>
> Negative:
> Afrikaans has double negative where there is an object
> or compliment. 'Ek studeer nie'
V: 'k Studere nie
> , 'Ek studeer geen
> Engels nie'
V: Ik en studere geên Ingels.
> , 'Ek moet nie dit h^e gestudeer nie'.
> Negative imperative formed with a contraction of 'must
> not' - 'Moenie studeer
V: Ge moe nie studeer'n
> ', 'Moenie studeer dit nie'.
>
> Sociolinguistics:
> It is not at all unusual for a conversation to proceed
> with one speaker speaking Afrikaans and the other
> English. I noticed also a Dutch speaker in Namibia
> struggling to decide which one to use to the waiter
> (or 'waitron', I should say) - he came out with 'Ons
> wil bestellen', an interesting mix!
>
> Afrikaans influence on Southern African English
> includes 'robot' ('traffic light'), 'bakkie' (an
> open-backed truck), 'braai' ('barbecue', although not
> used to refer to the apparatus itself), 'solank
V: zolank (zolange)
> ' used
> as a tag similar to German 'gleich' ('I'll be there so
> long'), and 'my pleasure' (from 'my plesier')
In V we say: me' plezier (met plezier)
>  used all
> the time, even by 'waitrons' just taking a cup off the
> table!
>
> NOTE these are entirely my observations and the
> examples are my own, and therefore open to much
> correction! All thoughts welcome, and any ideas for
> Internet links too!
>
> Many thanks/baie dankie,
>
> ------------------
> Ian James Parsley
> www.ianjamesparsley.net
> +44 (0)77 2095 1736
> JOY - "Jesus, Others, You"

Veel groetjes
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

----------

From: Ian James Parsley <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language Varieties

Criostoir,

If I may respectfully disagree, and make the point
that I think you confuse the term 'Afrikaner' with
'Afrikaans speaker' and therefore inadvertently accuse
me of implying things I never implied.

The terms 'Afrikaner' and 'Afrikaans speaker' are not
synonymous, by definition an 'Afrikaner' is white and
of solely European (usually Dutch, often French)
origin. Indeed 'Afrikaners' account for only half
Afrikaans speakers in South Africa, but my remarks on
culture applied only to them. The point there is that
Afrikaners' culture is clearly distinct, to the
observer, from Dutch or Flemish culture, just like
their language (even though it is not exclusive to
them) is distinct from Dutch. (I would agree, as did
the people I spoke to in South Africa, that the
language is in fact broadly nearer Flemish dialects
than 'Hollands').

'British South Africans' on the other hand (for want
of a better term) still have a clear cultural affinity
with the UK - changes to UK driving penalties are even
reported on the South African news, and certainly it's
as easy to get Premiership soccer results (and even
Scottish results from all divisions) in South Africa
as it is in the UK. This affinity too is marked
through their language, which is not only identifiably
English, but clearly *British* English.

And in South Africa the historical and demographic
reality is that 'English', 'Irish', 'Scottish',
'Yorkshire' etc all fall into the same 'British' pot,
even if we on this list know better!

Best regards,

=====
------------------
Ian James Parsley
www.ianjamesparsley.net
+44 (0)77 2095 1736
JOY - "Jesus, Others, You"

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