LL-L "Names" 2003.03.06 (05) [D/E/V]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2003.02.25 (06) [E]

> From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Names" 2003.02.25 (01) [E]
>
> Fact is that the area to the East of Flensborg in
> Slesvig-Holsten is still called "Angel", simply
> meaning the land of the Angles, this is the area in
> Jutland where the Angles origionated, most of this
> Angles left their homeland in the 6th century and went
> either to England or Saxonia-Anhalt/Thuringia, the
> area was occupied by Danes and Swedes who retained the
> name of the area, hence the area is still called
> "Angel" (or in German "Angeln") to this day. I have
> the impression that the name "Angles" is older than
> Tacitus's descriptions but what the exaxt meaning is
> is in dispute.
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Names
>
> Allison,
>
> I have long been under the impression that the etymology of the name
> "Angel"
> (> "Anglo-") is unknown.  An area in northernmost Germany, around
> Flensborg/Flensburg and along the German-Danish border is still known
> as
> _Angeln_.
>
> If various reports can be trusted, there was confusion between
> "Angels" and
> "angels" already in antiquity:
>
> <quote>
>
> (common era) with the arrival of the Roman missionary St Augustine on
> the
> Isle of Thanet in Kent. The missionaries were sent
>
> out on the orders of Pope Gregory, legend says that Pope Gregory,
> before
> becoming Pope, noticed some fair-haired boys in a slave market in
> Rome, and
> enquired where they were from. He was told that they were Angles and
> also
> Heathen, to which (Pope) Gregory replied, "Non Angli, sed angeli", "Not
> Angles but angels", and on becoming Pope he despatched the
> missionaries to
> convert the Anglo-Saxons.
>
> </quote>
>
> http://www.englishheathenism.homestead.com/heathenheritage.html
>
> <quote>
>
> The following brief sample of Old English prose illustrates several of
> the
> significant ways in which change has so transformed English that we
> must
> look carefully to find points of resemblance between the language of
> the
> tenth century and our own. It is taken from Aelfric's "Homily on St.
> Gregory
> the Great" and concerns the famous story of how that pope came to send
> missionaries to convert the Anglo-Saxons to Christianity after seeing
> Anglo-Saxon boys for sale as slaves in Rome:
>
>    Eft he axode, hu ðære ðeode nama wære þe hi of comon. Him wæs
>    geandwyrd, þæt hi Angle genemnode wæron. Þa cwæð he, "Rihtlice
>    hi sind Angle gehatene, for ðan ðe hi engla wlite habbað, and
> swilcum
>    gedafenað þæt hi on heofonum engla geferan beon."
We still have a lot of words in  V that can be translatend quickly.
V:
dære-der
∂eode-dietse
nama-naome
of comon- afkomen
Him wæs geandwyrd-hem was geantword
dæt hi Angle genemnode wæron-  dat hen Angle genoemd waoren
Rihtlice hi  sind Angle gehatene-Rechtlike hen zijn  Angle gehetene
geferan-gevaoren...

really interesting!

> A few of these words will be recognized as identical in spelling with
> their
> modern equivalents -- he, of, him, for, and, on -- and the resemblance
> of a
> few others to familiar words may be guessed -- nama to name, comon to
> come,
> wære to were, wæs to was -- but only those who have made a special
> study of
> Old English will be able to read the passage with understanding. The
> sense
> of it is as follows: "Again he [St. Gregory] asked what might be the
> name of
> the people from which they came. It was answered to him that they were
> named
> Angles. Then he said, 'Rightly are they called Angles because they
> have the
> beauty of angels, and it is fitting that such as they should be angels'
> companions in heaven.' "
>
> </quote>
>
> http://www.unifon.org/history-spelling.html
>
> And what about the _Cimbri_ (German _Kimbern_) that at one time lived
> from Jutland down to the Lower Elbe and later settled in the lands of
> the
> Baltic-speaking Prussians?  They are oftentimes described as
> "Celto-Germanic" or "Germano-Celtic" and also as remnants of the
> European aboriginal (non-Indo-European?) population.  (I assume that
> *most* Europeans are of mixed "aboriginal" and various Indo-European
> descent.)  May I assume that there is a connection between those
> _Cimbri_
> and the Welsh name of Welsh (_Cymraeg_) and Wales (_Cymru_)?
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
>
Dear Helge and Ron,

The  god" Ing" was the son of the god "Mannus", so - ing  became
perhaps  in general "children of..."

I was born in a village in West-Flanders : Ingelmunster. The oldest
form  is untill now "Ingelmoenstre"(1099), meaning  by some: cloister
of the "Angli"(perhaps because of the "Anglo"-missionary's in the 7th
century? ).
In Flanders there are meany villages that have an "ing" and a "thun" in
their names. For me that is an "Anglo" connotation. Look also at
"Englos", a village near Lille(Rijsel), a city of a German tribe, the
Angli.
Some (there are a lot more)  examples of places with "-ing" in
West-Flanders:

Izegem= Iso-inga-heim
Rollegem=Rollo-inga-heim
Vlamertinge= Flambert-inga-heim
Zwevegem= Sueven-inga-heim
Anzegem= Ansold-inga-heim
Alveringhem= Adalfried-inga-heim
Bavikhove= Bavo-inga-hove
Avelgem=Avila-inga-heim
Bellegem=Bello-inga-heim
Boezinge= Boso-inga-heim
Gullegem= Godila-inga-heim
Ingooigem= Inguald-inga-heim
And much more ...

When you look closer to the history of the whole region , meaning by
that the land between Zeeland (Nl)  and Boulogne(Fr), you'll find a lot
of interesting and puzzeling facts or possible explanations of the
European history in its oldest days.
I do not agree with the most accepted history's about the origines of
"Angels, Saxen and Friezen".
  When  one reads the oldest books
(Caesar-Tacitus-Strabo-Plinius-Ptolemeus-The g. of Ravenna) there are a
lot of questions that you can ask yourself. Most of the scientists just
follow what has been written by earlier historians. Is that the right
method?Some things got definitely mixed up. I don't know what is right
or wrong, that is something for our young historians. They shall need a
lifetime to study that.
Here are some conclusions i have  read about that ancient period in the
history  of Europe.I read them from authors like Delahaye, Jochems,
A.C.Maes, Ruud van Veen, Mestdagh, Vandemaele...:
-Rhenus, alwaeys translated as the  Rine is not correct. It also can
mean a river in general  (etym. "re"=to flow; and think off all the
other toponymes of rivers with "re"), and it also fits meany times for
the delta-aeria of the Schelde and the Leie.
-Are all of these tribes as big as  believed? Maybe they were just
local tribes, living apart-together.All the names of the tribes can be
found in the  Boulogne-Zwin region.
Examples:
Catti- Catsberg
Batavi- Béthune/Watten
Suevi-Zwevezele/Zwevegem... and dozens of others, all with a more
ancient history than  the  French and the German historians located
places. Even among each other,  they do not agree.
-Meany coördinates of several classical writers do not match with the
reality, unless you turn everthing a quarter to the west. There are
even some relicts of that, just look at the oriëntation of the
Westerschelde/Oosterschelde-Noordzee/Oostzee...
-Ravenna (7th c) writes  that the  Saxones came,  with their leader
Ansehis, from the Old-Saxonia. And he means  the actuel North of
France here.The German "Saxons" were people that had to fight against
Karel de Grote. They  were expelled  to the  north.Their origins lie in
the region of Boulogne sur Mer, on the "Litus Saxonium" So that is the
opposite of what Helge has told us.
So i come to a very difficult  problem regarding  the  early European
history.
Where were the Anglo-Saxon people first situated??
Here is a possible solution...
In the Netherlands and in Northern-Germany there  are no written
documents over the period from the  third to the  tenth century.
Everything is written in "French" chronicles. This is normal because in
those days the land in the north was flooded and was inhabited,  with
the exeptions of some higher parts.  Look at all the names and their
history.You will find that the oldest forms are in Western Europe and
that the names in  the Netherlands and in Northern-Germany come to
history in a latter period.
So one should not deplace historical events were they could not have
happened.
Give me an old (historical) name of a place in Friesland or
Nort-Germany, and i'll give you the  same version in France or Belgium,
only much  older. A few examples,
Albis=Aa (France) ->Elbe
Brêmes-> Bremen
Hames-Boucres-> Hamburg (that's for Ron)
Abbehem->Abbega
Léwarde->Leeuwarden
...
So the Angli in Western-Europe and the Angli in England lived next to
each other, both on one angle (winkel in V).

Other complication...
-Why is West-Flemish never mentioned much closer to Fries . When i read
a text from the 13th century in Fries, it looks to me as a Flemish
text, and when i hear Fries i understand it as a regional variant
closer than Dutch. Not one list shows this correctly.It becomes clear
when  you believe/proof that the old Frisia was in fact
French-Flanders.
Here is a poem that Guido Gezelle wrote down in 1898 in Brugge (He
heard it from a man called Emiel van Biervliet)(From "In de spiegel der
geschiedenis-J Vandemaele)

out Vlaams vers van be 't Swin

Als wi nog waren Vlaemen friesch,
ende erkenden  Wrald ende  Odin,
quaem daer van Eire ende Alba her,
woendere saege ende nieve leer.
Ut diep heet Zuud, een noorderlicht,
nog wyder  dan de  Middelzee,
waer wi ons setteden op kustenrots.
Vremde konde greep ons aen:
Van Od een speghelingh menschelick,
een Gode sprac Waerheyt noorderlick;
een weg gerade en konincklick.
Een Zone, men zegde  ons van  Odsche sibbe,
gevonden deur herders in  bloote kribbe.
Wi wisten  bi Thoer eerst  geenen raad,
of dizze konde was goet of kwaad,
maar vliegen dee'die mare blind,
va Noord toe  Oostzee met den wind.
ende  't was foor Friezen geen dere,
ende geen grond om zich stellen te were.
Ommers op Walchria bernde het vier,
snekken op Sincfal joegen fier.
Met Alba end'Eire we waren vereent
alvorens de  zeie ons scheidde vaneen.
Wi minden de konde, vrijhedens sterr'
en horkten of  quaem meer tydingh van verr'.
Wrald ende Odin staen altyt oerein,
van voor 's Booms beginne tot na syn ein!"

And in Dutch:
Oud vlaams vers van bij het Zwin

Toen wij nog Friese Vlamingen waren,
en Wralda en Odin erkenden,
kwam vanuit Ierland en Engeland, naar hier,
een wonderbare sage en een nieuwe leer.
Uit het verre warme zuiden kwam een  noorderlicht
nog wijder dan de Middellandse Zee
waar wij ons gevestigd hadden op een kust van rotsen.
Een vreemde boodshap greep ons aan.
Van god kwam er een menselike afspiegeling,
een God sprak de waarheid aan het noorden,
een rechte en koninklijke weg.
Een Zoon, men zei ons van Gods geslacht,
was door herders gevonden in een schamele krib.
Bij Thor! eerst wisten wij geen raad
of deze boodschap goed dan wel kwaad was.
Maar deze mare vloog blindelings
van het noorden tot de Oostzee met de wind!
De Friezen deerde het niet,
en zij hadden geen reden om zich teweer te stellen
Want op Walcria brandde het vuur,
de boten joegen fier op Sincfal.
Voorheen waren wij met Engeland en Ierland verenigd,
alvorens de zee ons vaneen scheidde.
Wij minden de boodschap, de ster van vrijheid,
hoorden of er nog meer tijdingen  van ver kwamen.
Wralda en Odin staan nog altijd overeind,
van voor het begin van de Boom tot aan zijn einde.

Vele groetjes
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

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