LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (06) [E]

Fri Jul 2 20:48:22 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (ZeÃªuws)
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From: denis dujardin <dujardin at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (04) [E]

So here we go again......
I wouldn't say that this desdain is typical Flemish, but some people have
this strange sort of attitude towards their own language.
I am not voting extreme-right, I am even strongly opposed to it, because
they manipulate the Flemish topic for their fascistoid aims,
but when you dare to express yourself, having a specific preference for your
language, you are treated suspiciously, in a way of being
extreme-right-nationalist. There are of course historical reasons that can
lead to this sort of connotation.
But when you are raised in a language, your thinking inherits a systematic
which influences your discourse.
You could call it part of your identity. This has nothing to do with ethnic
identity, which leads to awfull racism.
I call myself - quoting Geert Van Istendael, one of my favourite (even
left-winged) writers - a language-nationalist.
I am not ashamed to defend my language, which I consider as valuable an
equal to all other languages in the world.
The more languages, the more the difference and specificity in ways of
thinking.
This can only make the worl richer, enabling a confrontation of different
viewpoints.

But in Flanders there has allways been a strange thing going on.
Whe people go on Holliday to France for example and they see loads of French
banners, they do not bother
about the social or political background of this phenomenon. Yhe same
happens when you go to Scandinavia, where you see lots of Danish, Swedish
and Norwegian banners ornamenting houses and gardens.

When one dares to put a Flemish flag on their house, they are quite quickly
called nationalist (-extremist?-).
Flemish tend to dislike their identity, but there is ALLWAYS identity. You
cannot escape it.
The only way to express identity is language.
When you see European football teams, with different people of different
ethnic background, they at least will speak the language of the team they
are playing for.
I think this is a great thing, and it can wipe out that awfull ethnic
racism.

Therefore I only can congratulate Troy for his endeavour to learn the local
language.
This cannot be said for all those French spoken people who go and live there
and only want to speak one language.
Their own.

denis dujardin

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Language use

Beste Denis,

>I underlined that I speak 7 languages. French speaking people in
Belgium
>tend to speak only ONE, whereas most flemish ar bi-lingual.

I think you read my message too quickly.

I wasn't stating that Flemish expats don't try to learn another language
when living abroad, but merely that they will discriminate between
languages more "powerful" than Flemish (that they will indeed often try
to learn) and languages that in their opinion are less important than
Flemish (e.g. Lappish, Albanian, Yukaghir or Malagasy) that they would
rather not try to learn within one or two years time. When moving to
Flanders, native French speakers (unfortunately) regard Flemish in just
the same way as native Flemish speakers view Lappish, Albanian, Yukaghir
and Malagasy (when moving to Lapland, Albania, Yakutia or Madagascar).
Another example, how many Bulgarians will study Hawaiian if they decide
to move to Hawaii? I'm quite sure that most would rather opt for
English, knowing that they will get by on English.

Among the 7 languages that you speak Denis, is there any language that
has less speakers than Flemish has? See my point? I wasn't referring to
the number of languages that Flemish people can speak but rather to the
status of the languages they choose to speak.

I'm sure there's a psychological explanation for this.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2004.07.02 (04) [E]

Ron wrote:

> I can hear that he and his wife privately converse in Dutch/Flemish,
> sometimes lapsing into English.  They do not speak Dutch to their three
> children.  When I asked him why, he said that it was a waste of their time
> and brain power.  Their children speak English as a first language.  Their
> oldest daughter once expressed a desire to learn Dutch, because they often
> visit Belgium, and their grandparents visit here, and she "just likes it."
> He tried to talk her out of it, telling her that she would be better off
> learning French and/or German.  (However, during a stay with her
> grandparents she did manage to become moderately conversant in Dutch.)

Now this is completely beyond me. How did those parents come by such an
"American" attitude (forgive me for using this stereotype, but that seems to
be such a widespread concept in the States - as in "taking Spanish instead
of German" in high school). Don't they know that the more languages their
children learn to speak fluently at a young age, the easier they will learn
even more when they're older? My children learned both German and Durch from
birth, and when we moved to the States, it took them about six weeks to
manage a fluent conversation in English (they were 7 and 5 then, the
youngest was born over there) - because they were used to "thinking" either
German or Dutch, and so they never tried to translate word for word, but
simply started "thinking" English. Sadly, I have met many, many people in
the USA whose parents were immigrants and never taught them their own native
languages. Except for Hispanic families, I recall only ONE case where the
other language was kept alive (I was thrilled to meet small children in
Oregon who spoke fluent SchwyzerdÃ¼Ã¼tsch (Swiss German)!

Don't these parents know that letting a child grow up with a second language
(at least) means the gift of a whole new universe? Also, I find it very rude
to bring up a child who is unable to speak to its own grandparents - that
must be a heartbreaking experience for both sides! Good thing that little
girl semms to have more sense than both her parents.

Frankly, I wonder how much of this common attitude is a "power" issue - the
parents have a convenient way to speak to each other in front of the
children without being understood (or so they hope), AND they are making
sure that the children and grandparents can only have a relationship through
the controlling parents' interpretation.

Better stop before I'm getting all worked up... to me, depriving a child of
learning an alternative language, especially one that is spoken within the
family, is no less than a form of child abuse/neglect, even if there may be
well-meant motives lurking somewhere.

Gabriele Kahn

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language use

Gabriele:

> Now this is completely beyond me. How did those parents come by such an
> "American" attitude (forgive me for using this stereotype, but that seems
to
> be such a widespread concept in the States - as in "taking Spanish instead
> of German" in high school).

Again I hate to have to be the one who bursts your Gringo-grumble bubble,
Gabriele.

This person I am talking about, a man in his late 30s, is about as
"American" as a Tuareg, a Herero or a Samoyed.  After about 16 years of
residence in this country he has made hardly any attempt at cultural
adaptation, or at least accommodation, and frequently bewilders folks with
his seemingly excentric manners.  Besides -- I would say _Ã  l'europÃ©enne_ if
I were nasty and stereotyping -- he likes to rant to me, a fellow-European,
about the ills and evils of America and Americans, even though on several
occasions I have made it clear to him and to other fellow-Europeans around
here that I am not at all receptive to the bashing of Americans or of any
other ...ans and ...ers for that matter.  Furthermore, he does not plan to
remain in this country, often talks about returning to Europe, either to
Belgium or to Germany, excluding both France and the Netherlands as
unpalatable choices ...

> Sadly, I have met many, many people in
> the USA whose parents were immigrants and never taught them their own
native
> languages. Except for Hispanic families, I recall only ONE case where the
> other language was kept alive (I was thrilled to meet small children in
> Oregon who spoke fluent SchwyzerdÃ¼Ã¼tsch (Swiss German)!

Again I appeal to you not to generalize on the basis of your experience in a
particular place in Oregon.  I know many American- and Canadian-born people
who are proficient in the languages of their immigrant parents, even
grandparents.  Perhaps this is somewhat more frequent in larger cities with
a diverse, liberal and tolerant base, especially here on the Pacific Coast,
where Asian and African languages tend to be handed down and this may
inspire other immigrants to do likewise; plus, there is a strong, proud
North European base in our area that keeps its cultural and linguistic
traditions as Americans.  I use Yiddish with second-and third-generation
American-born people, and only one of them could be loosely referred to as
"traditional" and "religious."  So, again, beware of generalizations!

Furthermore, it is a sad fact that many parents in Germany deliberately did
not teach their children their own native Lowlands Saxon (Low German),
Frisian or Sorbian, even *discouraging* them from learning and using those
languages.  This was not only so in my childhood years but I have heard of
similar situations *now*, where parents consider those languages, their
*own* languages, a waste of time, even detrimental to the development and
socio-economic opportunities of their offspring.  I remember Greenlandic
parents protesting when in the 1960s the government of Kalallit Nunaat
wanted to increase the use of Kalallisut (Greenlandic) and reduce Danish use
in school curricula.  They had come to view their own language as inferior,
at least as stumbling blocks.  I hear similar stories about former Soviet
republics where non-Russian parents pass on to their children Russian rather
than their native languages.  So, let's not point at specific people.  Let's
just accept that this is a phenomenon that can be encountered anywhere in
the world.

You will find linguistic chauvinism or even "linguistic suspicion" anywhere
in the world.  On my travels in many countries I have come across people
scolding immigrants and even visitors for speaking foreign or non-local
languages in their presence.

As on one of my Germany visits the middle-aged icecream vendor on the beach
promenade in TravemÃ¼nde barked at me when I read aloud from her list of
flavors "Maple Walnut," _So weÃ¤t hia abÃ¤ nich geÃŸprochn!_ (_So wird hier
aber nicht gesprochen_ 'You don't talk like that around here!'  I was
supposed to have Germanized it as "Mahple Vallnutt," I suppose ...)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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