LL-L "Syntax" 2004.05.04 (01) [E]

Tue May 4 15:44:47 UTC 2004

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.29 (01) [E/LS]

> From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.28 (04) [E]
Hi Jan,
I would like to insert my Flemish possibilities:
(Sorry for the delay)
> The question of whether "de Minschen all ehr Larm" is actually very
> interesting
> for my structural analysis of the X-s Y possessive vs. the X sien Y
> possessive.
>
> In my corpus, I found tons of examples like "all siene Kinner", "all
> hör
> Glück", etc.
V: al zijn kinders
al heur geluk
> But so far I have only found one example where "all" appears in the X
> sien Y
> construction,
> namely: "de Minschen all ehr Larm". But this example is from a poem by
V: ?
> Eichendorff which
> translated from German into Low Saxon in a pretty archaic style. So my
> main
> question is
> whether sticking an "all" between "de Minschen" and "ehr Larm" is
> natural
> modern Low Saxon.
> e.g. "Hinnerk all siene Kinner sünd nu in'e School.", etc.
V: Hinnerk, al zijn kinders zijn nu in skole
>
> A related question is whether you can do the same with the -s
> possessive
> construction:
> Can you say things like:
>
> all Hinnerks Kinner  (meaning all of Hinnerk's children)
V: al Hinnerks kinders
> all mien Vadders Peer (meaning all of my father's horses)
V: al mijn vaders pèrden
>
> or maybe
> Hinnerks all Kinner (meaning all of Hinnerk's children)
V: ?
> mien Vadders all Peer (meaning all of my father's horses)
V: ?
>
Groetjes
luc Vanbrabant
Oekene
> (1) & (3) all de Kinner vun Hinnerk
V: Al de (alle) kinders van Hinnerk
> (2) & (4) all de Peer vun mien Vadder
V: Al de pèrden van min vadre
>
> The use of _all_ seems to exclude alternative structures.
>
> Hamburg dialect:
>
> (1) & (3) all de (~ alle) Kinner von Hinnerk
> (2) & (4) all de (~ alle) Pier von mien Vadder
>
> Likewise in Hamburg Missingsch:
>
> (1) & (3) alle Kinner von Hinnerk
> (2) & (4) alle Ferde von mein Vad(d)er
>
> Ungrammatical Missingsch:
>
> *(1) & (3) alle Hinnerks Kinner | alle Hinnerk seine Kinner
V:  Al Hinnerks (zijn) kinders
> *(2) & (4) alle mein Vad(d)ers Ferde | alle mein Vad(d)er seine Ferde
V: Al min vaders (zijn)  pèrden
>
> But grammatical Missingsch:
>
> (1) & (3) Hinnerks Kinner | Hinnerk seine Kinner
V: Hinnerks (zijn) kinders
> (2) & (4) mein Vad(d)ers Ferde | mein Vad(d)er seine Ferde
V:Min vaders (zijn) pèrden
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.29 (03) [E]

Hi again,
> From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.29 (02) [E]
>
> Hello,
> The second question is, whether the following is possible:
> "All den Mann siene Kinner sünd nu al groot".
> "All mien Vadder siene Frünne sünd kamen."
V: Al de mans kinders zijn nu al groot
Al min vaders maten zijn gekom'
Al min vader zijn maten zijn nu gekom'
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Syntax
>> Does this get better if you use the following?
>> "Hinnerks öldste Kinner"
>> "mien Vadders öldste Kinner"
V: Hinnerks oudste kinders
min vaders oudste kinders
>
> Hmmm ... not quite, not in *my* book.  The adjectival suffix _-e_ can
> only
> be used in case of indefinite plural forms; e.g. _öldste Kinner_
> '(some/any)
> oldest children' (as opposed to definite _de öldsten Kinner_ 'the
> oldest
> children').  All definite cases take the plural suffix _en_, and this
> includes _mien öldsten Kinner_ 'my oldest children', not *_mien öldste
> Kinner_), (*) _Hinnerks öldsten Kinner_ ~ _Hinnerk sien öldsten Kinner_
> 'Hinnerk's oldest children'.
>
> I'm not totally sure with regard to the constructions with genitive
> _-s_.
> They sound barely marginally acceptable with _-e_ with _Hinnerk_ and
> _mien
> Vadder_, not with _mien_, perhaps a tad better than with _-en_, and
> I'm not
> sure why.  As I said, this is too marginal for me anyway.  I would
> always
> use constructions with X sien Y or Y vun X.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Reinhard/Ron
Groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.30 (02) [E/LS]

> From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2004.04.29 (03) [E]
>
> Hello,
>
> here I am again.... asking weird questions about Low Saxon.
> (Ron, please give me a warning in case I am about to be banned from
> the list, that wouldn't be worth it....)
>
> Anyway, I have several small questions for all speakers of Low Saxon
> again:
>
> I assume that the following is a grammatical sentence:
> 1. "Hest du unsen all seihn? (Have you already seen ours?)
V: Ei 'n oezen  al gezien?
>
> Could 2 mean the same, i.e. "seen ours" instead of "seen us", maybe
> with a special intonation....?
> 2. "Hest du uns all seihn?"
V: Ei  oes al gezien?
>
> How about the following sentences do the sound ok (I don't mean my
> spelling
> or pronunciation):
> Hinnerk un Anna hebbt beid twee Kinner.
Hinnerk en Anna ein alle twee kinders
> Sien / Sient op de Bank dor is all twee Johr old. (His child on the
> bench is
> already two years old.)
De zien ('t ziene) up de bank is al twee jaar oud
> Ehr / Ehrt in de Sandkuhl is all öller. (Her child in the sandbox is
> already
> older.)
'n Euren ('t eure) in de zandbak is al oudre.
>
> Sien / Sient dat ik good kenn is all twee Johr old. (His child that I
> know
> well is already two years old.)
>
> Dat op de Bank dor is all twee Johr old. (The child on the bench is
> already
> two years old.)
V: Dad' up de bank daar is al twee jaar oud
> Dat in de Sandkuhl is all öller. (The child in the sandbox is already
> older.)
V: Dad'in de zandbak is al oudre
> Groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

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