LL-L "Slavonic connections" 2004.09.29 (07) [D/E/S]

Wed Sep 29 18:15:03 UTC 2004

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L O W L A N D S - L * 29.SEP.2004 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at worldonline.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Slavonic connections" 2004.09.28 (12) [E]

Thanks Reindert! I couldn't recall the name of Luneburger Slavonivic, but
now remember this Polabian again.
I even made a photocopy of a Polabian vocabulary that I found at the
university library about ten years ago
when I studied cultural anthropology in Utrecht, I'll see if I can find it
somewhere. I read a lot about Cashubian
and Sorbian too, as well as Baltic Prussian, I was interested in the
German(ic) and Saxon influence on these
languages especially. As you may guess from my Middelsprake, I like to
construct or invent naturalistic, and
"linguistically right" languages. In that time I also invented an originally
Slavonic language, spoken on an island
somewhere between Poland and Sweden, that was heavily influenced by Swedish,
Danish and Low German.
It had Scandinavian features but was still Slavonic. And did you know that,
like Romance Interlingua and
Germanic Middelsprake there is an Interslavonic common languages, called
Slovio, that seems to be comprehensible
by speakers of Russian, Polish, Serbian, Czech, Bulgaric etc? Ingmar

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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Slavonic connections" 2004.09.28 (12) [E]

Moin-moin, Lowlanders,

A good indication of historical Slavonic population are place names in those
areas mentioned by Reinhard, Eastern Holsten is certainly full of Slavonic
place names such as Eutin, Ploen etc., even Luebeck is of Slavonic origion
(Lubice), the most Western one is apparantly little Marutendoerp on the
Westensee, district of Rendsborg-Eggernfoer, nevertheless there are place
names in Angeln and further north into Soenderjylland which indicate
Slavonic population as well such as Windeby near Eggernfoer. On the island
of Lolland (DK) there are two villages called Kramnitse and Tilitse, I am
not sure whether they are of Slavonic origion though it sounds like it.
Perhaps anyone knows more about Slavonic place names in Denmark. It would be
interesting to get to know more about there history.

Helge

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From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Slavonic connections" 2004.09.28 (12) [E]

Moin alltohoop,

Ron schreev:

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Slavonic connections
>
>There were even sprinklings of Scots, if you believe it or not!  A place
near (in?) Gdańsk (Danzig): Nowe Szkoty (Neu Schottland in German).
>
Of dat glövst or nich: Nee un old  liggt faken nich wied  ut'nanner.
Wenn vun de Stare Miasto (Ole Stadt) vun Gdańsk (Danzig) kieken deist,
denn liggt  Stare  Szkoty  (Old Schottland) an de süüdwesten Kant (dune
bi Chełm, mang Chełm un´n Rangier-Bahnhoff) vun Gdańsk (Danzig) un Nowe
Szkoty (Nee Schottland)  liggt  in Richt Noordwest (mang Wrzescz un
Martwa Wisła, nich wied weg vun'n Göter-Bahnhoff).

Kumpelmenten
Utz H. Woltmann

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From: Jo Thys <Jo.Thijs1 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Slavonic connections" 2004.09.28 (12) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
  They called Lunenburg (LS Lüünborg, G Lüneburg) by the
> name Glain (which I reconstruct as *_Glin_ /g-liin/ *'place by/toward
river
> Lin'? > LS _Lüyne_ > _Lüün_, German _Lüne_).

Ron,

In Belgisch en Nederlands Limburg zijn er een aantal soortgelijke toponiemen
zoals Geleen, Glaaien (glons in het Frans). Ik heb ze steeds als 'glooiing'
opgevat, omdat ze veelal in een glooiend landschap bij een rivier te
situeren zijn. In mijn familie zijn er al eeuwen mensen met de achternaam
'herlitska' die uit Polen zou komen, alleen heb ik geen idee over de omvang
van die migratie. Hopelijk heb je hier wat aan.
Groeten,

Jo Thys.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Slavonic connections

Thanks, folks!

Helge:

> And did you know that,
>< like Romance Interlingua and
> Germanic Middelsprake there is an Interslavonic common languages, called
> Slovio, that seems to be comprehensible
> by speakers of Russian, Polish, Serbian, Czech, Bulgaric etc?

That's only one of a whole bunch.

> A good indication of historical Slavonic population are place
> names in those areas mentioned by Reinhard

Of course, the farther east you go the greater the number of Slavonic place
names becomes.  This includes Berlin ("swampy place" from _brlo_), Leipzig
(< Libizik < Lipsk, from _lipa_ 'lime tree', 'linden tree'), Rostock (<
Rostoc < *rostok 'widening of a river', 'delta'), and Dresden is supposed to
come from a Slavonic word denoting 'forest dwellers'.  My maternal
grandmother visited a school in Weißwasser, derived from Sorbian _Běla Woda_
("Whitewater"), this being an example of numerous Slavonic place names that
were translated into Lowlands Saxon or German.  There are also many place
names with _Wendisch_ ('Slavonic') as the first part.  In most such cases
this used to denote Slavonic sections of areas or Slavonic settlements that
had Germanic sister settlements; e.g., G. Wendisch Baggendorf = LS Wendsch
Baggendörp vs G. Kirchbaggendorf = Karkbaggendörp (in Mecklenburg-Western
Pomerania), better even Wendischbora vs Deutschenbora (southwest of Meissen,
Saxony), and G. Wendisch Evern = LS Wendsch Evern vs G. Deutsch Evern = LS
Düütsch Evern (near Lunenburg, Lower Saxony).

The latest estimate is that 25-30 percent of "German" family names in the
eastern area are definitely of Slavonic origin, not counting those that
moved west.  This includes most names ending
with -ow, -o, -ski, -sky, -itz, -ütz, -a, -ka, -ska, -ke and -inke.   I have
a feeling that this is only the tip of the iceberg, because many Slavs took
on Germanic family names, and their original ones faded away even within
their language community after a while.  This can still be observed among
Sorbs nowadays.  Many have German(ized) names for German contexts and
Sorbian names for Sorbian contexts; e.g., Ernst Mucke < Arnošt Muka, Jacob
Lorenz < Jakub Lorenz, Maria Krautz < Marja Krawcec.  Most of the Sorbs that
emigrated to Texas and Australia los their Sorbian names because they were
dominated by German emigrants and by English-speaking environments.  Many
Sorbian writers and scholars (and probably others) in Germany are now
reverting to consistently using their Sorbian names, namely also within
German contexts.

I wrote:

>  They called Lunenburg (LS Lüünborg, G Lüneburg) by the
> name Glain (which I reconstruct as *_Glin_ /g-liin/ *'place by/toward
> river
> Lin'? > LS _Lüyne_ > _Lüün_, German _Lüne_).

I take that back now that I realize that (Old Polab. glina >) _glaino_ means
'clay' (cf. Polish _glina_, Czech _hlína_, Russian глина _glina_).

Also, I take back my claim that ModPol ai comes from ei and au comes from
ou.  They seem to come from long "i" and "u" respectively.

Furthermore, _bauk_ 'beech' clearly is not a Lowlands Saxon loan but is
native Slavonic, is merely related.  It comes from _buk_, which is also the
word in most other Slavonic varieties.

I do, however, suspect that ModPol _daisko_ (< *diska) comes from Lowlands
Saxon (_disch_), or better to say from Old Saxon _disk_ or even from an
older version; cf. Germanic *_disko_ 'dish', 'bowl', 'wooden board (to eat
from)'.  Medieval Polabian still called 'table' _stôl_ (cf. Pol. stol, Cz.
stůl, Rus. стол stol).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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