LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.02 (01) [E]

Thu Jun 2 15:26:34 UTC 2005

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From: Gavin Falconer <Gavin.Falconer at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.06.01 (03) [E]

Scríobh Críostóir:

> Then you will be as despondent as I am about a thread
> that has been running through the letters page of the
> Irish Times for the last fortnight or so. Apparently,
> some of its readers find Irish a bit too difficult and
> have suggested that the language be simplified for them -
> so no eclipsis or lenition and a cut back on the
> declensions (there are only three, so I don't know how
> they want to cut back)! So far most correspondents have
> (unbelievably) agreed, and only one that I have read has
> pointed out that these features perform necessary
> functions in the language. What madness that the debate
> should even be being had. I think that says more about
> linguistic attitudes in modern Ireland than I ever could.

Surely there are five declensions in Irish, the three main ones, the fourth,
which stays the same in the genitive (e.g. _páiste_ 'child', I think from
Norman French _page_), and the fifth, which has a lot of consonantal stems
that have to be learnt (_litir_, gen. _litreach_, in older texts also dat.
_litrigh_, 'letter').

Isaac said:

"That sounds similar to what the good folks at An Teanga Nua (
http://www.celtichosting.com/teanganua/ ) have to say.
It's complete nonsense. Irish is (aside from the mutations, perhaps)
stunningly simple. Noun declension takes some memorisation, the gender
system is difficult for English-speakers (but no moreso than French or
Spanish), and the broad-slender thing is a little tricky. Other than that,
it's cake. As languages go, anyway."

I'd have to agree. Irish has formed a sort of Sprachbund with English that
means that, after the initial hurdles, the most difficult being the spelling
system, it is often possible for English-speakers to achieve a higher
standard than in much more closely related languages such as German. My
German is much better than my Irish, since my wife is from Bonn and we use
it every day, but I suspect that I would make fewer mistakes in written
Irish. My wife herself said that she often had to translate Irish into
English before she could translate it into German.  This is particularly
evident in phrasal verbs such as "cur suas le rud" ('put up with something')
and "fáil amach" ('find out').

--
Best,

Gavin

Gavin Falconer

"Tharfor wordly happe es ay in dout
Whilles dam fortune turnes hir whele about."

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From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.06.01 (03) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>and a cut back on the
> declensions (there are only three, so I don't know how
> they want to cut back)!<

In the last twenty years 'whom' has practically disappeared from the English
of the under 40s.
The ending means nothing to them It conveys nothing to them so they drop it

English is a good example of what happens when people from different
language areas develop a lingua franca from their various languages: a
general smoothing out occurs - gradually: more rapidly in spoken language
than in written, which clings to 'correctness'.

What happened to the 6 Germanic endings of the verb? They disappeared
except for 's' ( which cam from a different source)
What happened to the 4 cases? except for he him   she her  who whose whom
we us  they them   this these that those   - all gone.

It happens to a language when the people speaking it can no longer see a
clear purpose for a syllable/emphasis/ suffix etc etc: they are softened,
and then lost.

If the irish want to move their language into the 21st century, they will
................ but I bet it's happening without the aid of focussed
discussion - out on the streets and in the homes, which is where all
language really lives and develops!

Heather

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Heather!

That's an interesting ... proposal (?).

I think it needs to be added that, as a trade-off for morphological
"impoverishment," English was forced to adopt a relatively inflexible
syntax.  In other words, the loss of marking necessitated more rigid
sentence structure whereby case marking now relies solely upon a word's
position; e.g.,

[[subj.] [[verb] [indir.obj.] [dir.obj.]]
The mother gave her husband the boy.

This is pretty much it, except that you can use "to" to change the
structure:

The mother gave  the boy to her husband.
(The mother gave to her husband the boy. Iffy)

On the other hand, in languages that preserve morphological marking, the
syntactic structure is more flexible, can be altered for various reasons,
such as emphasis or simply poetic purposes; e.g.,

German:
Die Mutter gab ihreM Mann(E) deN JungeN.
IhreM Mann(E) gab die Mutter deN JungeN.
DeN JungeN gab die Mutter ihreM Mann(E).

Low Saxon:
De mouder geyv' er(EN) man d'N jung.
Er(EN) man geyv' de mouder d'N jung.
D'N jung geyv' de mouder er(EN) man. (?)*

(* This is a poor choice due to insufficient marking, could be understood as
the mother giving her husband to the boy.)

Russian:

Мать давала мальчиков её супругам.
Mat’ davala mal’čikov jejo suprugam.
(Mother gave (fem.) boy (acc.) her spouse (dat.).)

Мать давала её супругам мальчиков.
Mat’ davala jejo suprugam mal’čikov.
(Mother gave (fem.) her spouse (dat.) boy (acc.).)

Мать мальчиков давала её супругам.
Mat’ mal’čikov davala jejo suprugam.
(Mother boy (acc.) gave (fem.) her spouse (dat.).)

Мать её супругам давала мальчиков.
Mat’ jejo suprugam davala mal’čikov.
(Mother her spouse (dat.) boy (acc.) gave (fem.).)

Turkish, like all Turkic and most Altaic languages, has mandatory and
consistent case suffixing and therefore a great deal of syntactic
flexibility:

Anne kocasıNA oğlanI verdi.
KocasıNA anne oğlanI verdi.
OğlanI anne kocasıNA verdi.
KocasıNA anne oğlanI verdi.
KocasıNA oğlanI verdi anne.
OğlanI kocasıNA verdi anne.

(anne 'mother', koca-sı 'her husband', oğlan 'boy', ver- 'give', -(n)a
~ -(n)e [dative], -(y)ı ~ -(y)i [accusative])

I am not suggesting that greater syntactic flexibility is superior, though
many poets and other types of writers may think so.  After all, English is
managing just fine without it.  My point is just that morphological
simplification did not come without cost.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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