LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.31 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 31.APR.2005 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Dan Prohaska <danielprohaska at bluewin.ch>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Ingmar Roerdinkholder wrote:

[...]
>>In Dutch, we don't aspirate at all, it is the only Germanic language
>>without it.
[...]
>>Long ago (10 years or so) I had a girlfriend from Vienna - originating in
>>Burgenland, Austria - who lived in the Netherlands for a while. I remember
>>she had trouble differenciating <t> from <d> in Dutch, saying things like
>><dee> [de:] for <thee> [te:i] = tea, etc. Probably because she heared our
>>unaspirated <t> as a <d>, or because she couldn't pronounce <t> without
>>puff, and <d> was the nearest sound to it in her repertoire.

Ingmar,
Eastern Austrian dialects do not aspirate <p t k> either. Rather than a
voiced/voiceless opposition there is a fortis/lenis opposition. <t> and <d>
apart from force of articulation are also kept separate by the length of the
preceding vowel (if there is one). In initial position High German <t> and
<d> are difficult to differentiate. There is no aspiration here. So if your
girlfriend said <dee> in Dutch for "tea", she will most likely also have
said <dee> in German as well as her eastern Austrian dialect. Actually this
<d> is an un-aspirated [t].
Dan

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Anniversary" 2005.04.28 (12) [E]

Älvard "J.C." te Kraamplep, is Jameld actually Western Germanic?
I read <Te Tënköizja> at the A-site, and that it is meant to be a sister
of Dutch, Frisian and German, but I thought to remember that before other
European languages and even Esperanto were also mentioned. But maybe I'm
wrong about that.

I like Jameld, it looks beautiful to a lunatic language lover like I am,
but it looks more like a far off and isolated shoot of Germanic than
Western Germanic, I think. It even reminded me at first sight to Estonian
or another Finno-Ugric language, and that's the charme of it too.

*The first lines of The Wren (Te Tënköizja) in Jameld:

"Te taltallat tallta tes te tënköizja aa etü netst inte gareg^.
Et wä aunts tes t'eldares wölaa ot vor halen anstes vor te yunges,
und less te züken älan. Lati pastsand, te väthi tenköizja kom ï homz."

*The same in Middelsprake (De Heggeköng):

"De heggeköng hadde bued siin nest in de wagenskure.
Nu de elders ha boide flioged uut, de wilde fatte enigting
to ete for de  lit fogels - on de ha lated dem heel alene.
Afer enig tiid de fader kom weder heem."

Middelsprake is meant to be Common Germanic, so both Western Germanic and
Scandinavian. It is recognizable and understandable at first sight for
speakers of Dutch, Low Saxon, Frisian, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian and
probably of German too, and I think to a lesser extend also1 for English
and Scots speakers.

In the Benelux, most Dutch and Flemish know: Dutch, English and German.
The Frisians in the Netherlands know Frisian, Dutch, English and German.
The Low Saxons in the Netherlands know L Saxon, Dutch, English and German.
The Los Saxons in Germany know Low Saxon, German and English.
The Luxemburgers know Lëtzebergisch(?), German and English.
The Germans, Swytzers and Austrians know: German and English.
In Scandinavia, besides their own languages the Danes, Swedes and Norwegi-
ans know each other's languages, and most know English and German as well.

So in continental Germanic speaking Europa, almost everyone knows English
and German and at course his/her own native language, and maybe a dialect.

So people will recognize in Middelsprake -being an average of all these-
words of their own language, from their dialect, from neighbouring
languages or dialects, and from English and German.

I'm still curious if English speakers, who don't know other (Germanic)
languages normally, still can understand or at least recognize Middelsprake
too... I'm aware of the fact that monolinguists English speakers are rare
at this LLList, but still, I'd like to hear more about it...

Ingmar

>I (Ingmar) asked:
>btw: with the language samples, can Interlingua still be under Romance
>and Middelsprake under Germanic, too? Next to constructed, I mean
>Rein replied:
>All righty then, since you've been so helpful.  It's done, and this
>applies to James' Jameld version also.

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