LL-L "Etymology" 2007.12.11 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  11 December 2007 - Volume 02
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.12.10 (03) [D/E/LS]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

"It boils down to the German nouns *Kunde*, Low Saxon *K**ünn*, 'knowledge',
'notice', the adjectives *kund* (e.g. *kund tun/geben*), Low Saxon *k**ünnig
*, 'known', 'made aware', and the verb *k**ündigen*, Low Saxon *k**ünnigen*,
'to make known', 'to make aware', 'to give notice', thus directly
corresponding to English "to give notice (of one's intention to end a
business relationship)." These words are related to "couth," now defunct in
English, while it's opposite survives: "uncouth," and there's Scots *couthie
* 'appropriate', 'proper'.."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

And of course English "cunning", now meaning "knowing" in a sly or crafty
way. Also the conning tower of a submarine - it's where the ones who "know"
stand.

Paul Finlow-Bat


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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.12.11 (01) [E]

Beste Jonny,

du schrayfs:
> You just wrote that it were two different words, but I am not sure
> if you quoted the meaning of 1. completely.

Shure that I quoted both completely, as they are in Lübben. I just
let out the formal "sw. v." = weak verb (konjugation). And before the
entries in Klöntrup as well.

> In our LS _birsen_ means cattle running away (with their tails
> up!)  specially from a fly which is called G 'Dasselfliege', E:
> 'worble fly'. It is also used in Northern Standard German as well.
> So the meaning is exact like that of _bissen_, as you quoted.

That sounds verisimilar and convincing. That is more or less the
meaning both Lübben (for Middelsaxon) and Klöntrup (for Westphalian)
assign to "bissen". (Whyever the difference of Dasselfly and
Bisselworm might be there).

> So- we may allowed to doubt if the word really is from Middle Low
> Saxon origin, though it probably had been used there.

Of course, that's in doubt after your finding out. But which word in
what meaning? The entries you qoted from GRIMM and DUDEN both rely on
the "Pirschen/Jagen" meaning deduced from from Old French "berser".
But the meaning of "birsen" in Northern LS - as you reported - and of
"bissen" in Westphalian after Klöntrup hardly can be derived
therefrom, isn't it?

Therefore I would not exclude, that there was/is a meaning and
probably a Saxon/Germanic root of "birsen/bissen" in the sense of
"running around" and/or "seeking copulation" in case of cattle, but
that the other meaning from Old French "berser" was introduced in
Middelsaxon and mingled with the Northern (existing) form "birsen",
meanwhile the Westphalians just hold the first meaning(s) developed
to or overcome already from Middelsaxon "bissen".

Of course, this is only superficial reasoning from the rather
different meaning of "birsen/bissen" and French "berser".

> Allerbest!

Joachim Kreimer-de Fries
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