LL-L 'Language varieties' 2007.02.04 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L - 04 February 2007 - Volume 01

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L 'Language varieties' 2007.02.03 (02) [E]

Ron wrote:
>A Hessian textbook?  I'd be very surprised to come acro ss one.  Hessian is
not and is not perceived as a separate language but is a group of >German
dialects, and most German speakers find it easy to understand them.

So, obviously, you've never been to rural Hesse... there are dialects there
that could well qualify as separate languages if one were so minded. What
you described is pretty much a city accent, as you would find in Frankfurt,
Marburg, or Wiesbaden. Try listening to natives from the villages around
Tann/Rhön, or the deepest Odenwald! Then you'll find that what you think you
know now is not their actual dialect. Most Germans from other areas wouldn't
understand a single word that is spoken.

You emphasized several times "how this is relevant to the Lowlands". May I
remind you that your exclusion of German and German dialects other than
Lower Saxon (which you claim is a separate language while everything else
isn't) is by your own, subjective definition, which springs from an effort
to keep LS as separate from German as possible? Hessian, for example, is not
all that different from LS in many respects (not to mention High German!).
They don't live in the lowlands, of course, but neither do we in Southern
Lower Saxony!

Gabriele Kahn

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From: R. F. Hahn <yahoo at com>
Subject: Language varieties

Gabriele:

> May I remind you that your exclusion of German and German dialects other
than Lower Saxon (which you claim is a separate language while everything
else isn't) is by your own, subjective definition, which springs from an
effort to keep LS as separate from German as possible?

Even if all of this were true (and I realize that it or its appearance are
likely to rub some Germans the wrong way), it wouldn't change the fact that
our focus is what it is. And I mention yet again two things:

   1. There are several listservs that deal with German specifically and
   others that deal with Germanic generally, both types usually including Low
   Saxon (if it's ever mentioned). My assumption is that there's room for
   different approaches, views and emphases, including alternative ones, even
   if they fly in the face of some people's realities or wishes. Our name is
   "Lowlands-L," not "Germanic-L".
   2. Like any other language, German may be discussed on LL-L if the
   discussion is relevant to the focus, especially if the varieties discussed
   are Lowlands-specific.

Many ways lead to Rome, and there's always freedom of choice as to which one
to take.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

---------

From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <karl-heinz.lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L 'Language varieties' 2007.02.03 (02) [E]

Paul, you wrote:

What sort of status as a language does Hessian have? Could I buy a "Teach
Yourself Hessian" for example? I mean as a serious language book; many
English dialects will have books supposedly teaching local dialect ("Learn
thisen Yarkshir", and for my local East Midlands dialect "Eyup Miduck") but
these are largely tongue-in-cheek spoofs.

There are these Kauderwelsch Books combined with CDs, some of them are about
German dialects. At the moment they have: Bairisch, Berlinerisch,
Elsässisch, Fränkisch, German Slang, Jiddisch, Kölsch, Letzebuergesch,
Platt, Sächsisch, Schwäbisch, Schwitzerdüütsch and Wienerisch.

Look at:

http://www.reise-know-how.de/buecher/sprachindex.html

This series of small books claims to give you a basic knowledge of the
particular language or dialect. At least you get an idea of how the dialect
looks an sounds like and how it differs from standard German. The one of
them who comes closest to Hessian is "Fränkisch". It could even be that this
"Büchlein" defines "Frankisch" in a sense that comprises Hessian. Unless
it's only a matter of time till a Hessian Kaderwelschsprachführer will be on
the market.

Karl-Heinz

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L 'Language varieties' 2007.02.03 (02) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com >
Subject: Language varieties

Paul,

My first name ain't Gabriele, but my last name is almost Kahn. So I'll throw
a couple of old-currency Pfennigs worth of comments into the ring.

There's a fair bit of variety in Hessian German.  Much depends on if you are
referring to "Hessian" as a type of dialect or as all language varieties
that happen to be used in the German state of Hesse ( Hessen).

In the very north of the state there are a few communities that speak Low
Saxon (Low German), and this is where we find some relevance to this list.
Just south of that area there's a narrow band of dialects that qualify as
"Central German" ( i.e., transitional varieties" or "contact varieties,"
depending on your personal bias). South of that is where you find the
"actual" Hessian German dialects, and this includes the traditional dialect
of Frankfurt on Main.

Gabriele already mentioned a couple of phonological characteristics of
Hessian, and I'll generalize that and add a couple of items.

   1. What in Standard German is [ç] (/x/ ch after front vowels) is
   pronounced like German sch and English "sh"; e.g., Standard Ich
   fürchte mich = Hessian Isch fihscht misch 'I'm afraid'.

   2. Voiceless consonants are voiced between vowels and/or voiced
   consonants; e.g., Standard Hessen = Hessian Hesse ['hEze] 'Hesse',
   Standard Betten = Hessian Bedde 'beds', Standard Hexe = Hessian Hegze'witch'.

   3. Front rounded vowels are unrounded in most dialects; Standard Möchtest
   du dünner werden? = Hessian Mescht du dinneh wehde? 'Do you want to
   get thinner (slimmer)?'

   4. -r is "dropped," actually assimilated to the preceding vowel,
   resulting in a lengthened vowel; e.g., Standard werden = Hessian
wehde'to become', Standard
   besser = Hessian besseh ['bEze:] 'better'.

   5. -en is pronounced as [e]; e.g., Standard essen = Hessian
esse['?Eze:] 'to eat', Standard
   wetten = Hessian wedde 'to bet', Standard hüpfen = Hessian hibwe 'to
   hop'.

Quite a few of these characteristics are found in "typical" Central German
dialects, which leads me to favor allocating most, if not all, Hessian
dialects to that category.

A Hessian textbook?  I'd be very surprised to come across one.  Hessian is
not and is not perceived as a separate language but is a group of German
dialects, and most German speakers find it easy to understand them.  If in
cases like these there are textbooks and the like, I would expect them to be
tongue in cheek, if not outrightly poking fun.

And another point of relevance to the Lowlands:

Hessian dialects used to be spoken in 18th-century Northeastern America,
namely by mercenaries hired by Britain to help supress anti-colonialist
American endeavors.  Some of them stayed after the war and came to be
absorbed into various communities. Others came to be transferred to Ireland
to help the British forces fight the rebellion there.

As most of you probably know, there are some legends and spooky stories
about Hessians in New York State and thereabouts, such as the horrible
headless Hessian haunting Sleepy Hollow, a community founded by settlers
from the Netherlands ...  Huuuu ... Isch fihscht misch!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

Thanks Ron, that clarifies a lot, geographically and linguistically.
Frankfurt am Main is much further south than I had envisaged the area to be.

As to Sleepy Hollow, the movie with Johnny Depp a few years back was
actually the first time I'd ever heard of "Hessians".  Would the late and
not-very-lamented Rudolf have had ancestry in that area? (Hessen, not NE
America!)

Paul
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