LL-L 'Grammar' 2007.02.04 (02) [E/German]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L - 04 February 2007 - Volume 02

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From: "heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk" <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L 'Orthography' 2007.02.01 (03) [E]

What about  "Des Meeres und der Liebe Wellen"?

How succinct and muscical can you get simultaneously!

Heather

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From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <karl-heinz.lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L 'Orthography' 2007.02.02 (01) [E]

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L 'Orthography' 2007.02.01 (03) [E]

 >  Karl-Heinz wrote:
 > >For those who are learning Standard-German: You have the choice between
 > >...
 > >2. a dative construction: „dem Vogel seine Hochzeit"
 > >(Pretty often used in all German varieties, I think also in Lowlands
languages, do you say: "den Vogel sien(e) Hochtied" in LS >and "de[n] vogel
zijn bruiloft" in D?)

 >  But no! This is not a correct, "standard" German form at all - it is a
wrong construction that some people use, and considered quite "inferior".

I know, it's "verpönt" at least in written German, no doubt about that, I
forgot to add this. But it's a fact that for example a student of German who
comes to Germany to practice will hardly hear genitives as well as in
Standard German and dialect neither in Germany (at least in the South)
nor in Switzerland and Austria. So I think it is advisible for every student
of German to get used to this "inferior" colloquial speech.

(But you probably don't need it in Hannover:

"Geht hin nach Hannover, in die Hauptstadt der angeblichen Niedersachsen.
Ihr werdet dort blühende Landschaften erleben, in der nicht Plattdeutsch
oder ein schlechtes Missingsch gesprochen wird, sondern ein perfektes
Hochdeutsch
aus der Konserve."

End of promoting a "Sprachurlaub" in Hannover, the capital of  "Low
Saxony".)

And so I wonder if the jugdement of this dative formula as "incorrect" and
"inferior" has it's root in the oppression of Low German in the North. I
assume that High-German enthousiasts estimated / estimate the use of dative
as an "inferior"  Missingsch thing from Low German and Dutch, whereas they
didn't / don't really recognice that this is also nearly exclusively used in
most (High-) German dialects, I think in all "real" dialects, because this
"accent-" dialects are no dialects at all.

(About "accent"- dialects: Es amüsiert mich immer wieder, wenn Leute in den
deutschsprachigen Unterhaltungsmedien glauben, sie könnten Dialekte
nachmachen, indem sie sich mehr schlecht als recht einen Akzent aufsetzen.)

 > >For me a word order with the genetive in front looks best. Genitive is
hardly used in colloquial German
 > >(I don't know  any (real) German dialect which uses the genitive), and
this is probably why in written
 > >German the genitive is dying, hence we say "Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv
sein Tod". And so do the
 > >compound words: they replace genitives.

>  But "Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod" is a sarcastic book title,
designed to make you wince, and the book itself explains why this
construction is completely wrong in standard German!
>  It  is correct in LS ("Herrn Pastorn sin Kauh"), but never in German.

I'm now likely to write a book called: "Der Genitiv ist des Dativs Tod!"
Jedenfalls quält der Genetiv den Dativ offensichtlich schon eine ganze Weile
in der deutschen Sprachgeschichte. Mir persönlich gefällt der Genetiv
praktisch nur in der geschriebenen Sprache (er sieht gut aus), in der
gesprochenen Sprache vielleicht in bedeutungsvollen Reden, ansonsten kann
ich jedenfalls auf ihn verzichten. Übrigens auch auf den Konjunktiv I. Auch
das ist eine "hannoverdeutsche" Diktatur. In der gesprochenen Sprache kommt
das alles so aufgesetzt und gezwungen rüber.

Why can't we decide by ourselves what is wrong or right? Warum gehorchen die
Deutschsprachigen so untertänig den Sprachdesignern seit Luther? (Der hat
den Leuten ja angeblich auf's Maul geschaut. Alle Sprach"veredler" danach
haben das sicher nicht gemacht. Und deshalb ist die Hochdeutsche Sprache u.a.
so pseudo-logisch und eindeutig, sodass Wortspiele nur eingeschränkt möglich
sind. Ich glaube Gabriele, du hast ja auch einmal sinngemäß geschrieben:
puns work better in English than in Dutch, but in German they don't work at
all.)

 >  Is Hessian not a "real dialect", then? They use the genitive even for
proper names! For example, somebody named Alfons Heppe would be "Heppes Alf"
in Hessian.
>   Reinhard  Hahn  would  be "Hahns Reinhard". And so on, you get the
picture.

Even for proper names? I suppose they only use it for names, this is
generally done in High-German dialects (I forgot that, I never claim to
be complete), for exampel quite often in Tyrolean. But the Hessians wouldn't
say "Der Bembel des Heppes Alf" but "(Dem) Heppes Alf sein Bembel".
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bembel

 > It's "Die Vogelhochzeit" and not "Des Vogels Hochzeit" because it doesn't
mean "The bird's wedding" at all, but "A wedding among birds".

Also doch eine "Vögelhochzeit" (oder "Der Vögel Hochzeit[en]?)".

Liebe Grüße
Karl-Heinz

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From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <karl-heinz.lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L 'Grammar' 2007.02.02 (02) [E]

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L 'Orthography' 2007.02.01 (03) [E]

: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net >
Subject: LL-L 'Orthography' 2007.01.30 (04) [E]

For me a word order with the genetive in front looks best. Genitive is
hardly used in colloquial German (I don't know  any (real) German dialect
which uses the genitive), and this is probably why in written German the
genitive is dying, hence we say "Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod". And so
do the compound words: they replace genitives.

Regards
Karl-Heinz
What??!!!??
A quarter of my old declension tables are becoming obsolete????

Paul Finlow-Bates

No Paul, not at all. You need them at least for written German. Additionally
for colloquial German you also have to get used to these so called "inferior"
German dative constructions (often combined with prepositions, just as in LS
and Dutch). You can hear them quite often, but I'm afraid you won't find
lessons about them in your books.

Liebe Grüße
Karl-Heinz

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From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <karl-heinz.lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L 'Grammar' 2007.02.01 (04) [E]

*Von:* Lowlands Languages & Cultures [mailto:
LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG]*
Im Auftrag von *Lowlands-L List
*Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 01. Februar 2007 22:59
*An:* LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
*Betreff:* LL-L 'Grammar' 2007.02.01 (04) [E]
  This is now my 4th lowlands mail today, you know: lazy Sunday afternoon. I
found a funny thing about this German dative thing in Hessian: "dem Babba
sein Bembel" in http://de.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chinesisch:_Lektion_3

Karl-Heinz
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