LL-L "Etymology" 2007.03.30 (03) [E]

Fri Mar 30 22:10:12 UTC 2007

L O W L A N D S - L - 29 March 2007 - Volume 03

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.03.29 (03) [E]

Subject: L-Lowlands Etymology

By the way, "mire," too, means 'swampy ground' or 'bog'. It is an early
Scandinavian loan; cf. Old Norse *mýrr* (Icelandic *mýri*), Norwegian *myr*,
Old Swedish *myr* (Swedish *myr*), Danish *myr*. It is related to archaic
"mese" once used in southwestern England, related to Old German mios and
Middle Dutch mies , also Mies 'moss' in some "German" (Low Saxon?) dialects,
as in Miesmuschel '(blue) mussel'.

May I presume to differ with you? The "mire" of 'quagmire has a cognate in
English, of 'mere': A pool or lake, [OE 'mere', sea, lake, pool; German,
Dutch, Afrikaans & English (obsolete) 'meer', Latin 'mere'. A 'quagmire' is
surely a lake of ooze!

Regards,
Mike

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Slavonic connections

Mark:

> May I presume to differ with you?

What if I say no?  Then you'd be up a creek, would you?  ;-)  But, hey!  Why
not?  Be my guest ... and that of a whole bunch of dictionaries!

The Oxford English Dictionary:

mere, n.

[Cognate with Old Frisian *mere* sea (West Frisian *mar* lake), Middle Dutch
*mêre*, *meer* sea, lake (Dutch *meer* lake), Old Saxon *meri* sea, lake
(Middle Low German *mêr*, *meer*, (rare) *mâre*, German regional (Low
German) *Meer*), Old High German *meri*, *mer* sea, lake (Middle High German
*mer* sea, German *Meer*), Old Icelandic *marr* sea (Icelandic *mar*),
Faeroese *marrur* marsh, fen, Norwegian *mar-* sea (in compounds), Old
Swedish *mar* sea (Swedish *mar-* (in compounds), Swedish regional
*mar*shallow water, marshy inlet or lake, fen), Danish
*mar-* sea (in compounds; Old Swedish *mär*, Old Danish *mær* sea, are
borrowings from Middle Low German), Gothic *mari-* (in the compound *
marisaiws* lake), *marei* sea < a Germanic base cognate with classical Latin
*mare* sea (> French *mer*, Occitan *mar*, Catalan *mar*, Spanish *mar*,
Portuguese *mar*, Italian *mare*, Romanian *mare*), Old Irish *muir*, (Irish
*muir*), Old Welsh *mor*, (Welsh *môr*), Breton *mor* (cf. also Gaulish *
Aremorici*, lit. 'dwellers by the sea'; see
ARMORICA<http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=word&queryword=mere&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&search_id=sldl-qqXTW0-19094&result_place=1&xrefword=Armorica&ps=n.>
*n.*), Old Church Slavonic *morje* sea, Russian *more* sea, Old Prussian *
mary*, Lithuanian *marė*, and Latvian *mare*, all in sense 'lagoon, bay'.
The above-mentioned Germanic cognates chiefly represent a Germanic *i*-stem,
and are variously masculine and neuter; the existence of a Germanic *īn*-stem
from the same base is shown by Gothic *marei*, feminine (the occasional
appearance of the feminine gender in some West Germanic forms, esp. in Old
Saxon, is prob. a reflection of this). Other Germanic words ultimately from
the same base are (with ablaut variation) prob.
MOOR<http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=word&queryword=mere&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&search_id=sldl-qqXTW0-19094&result_place=1&xrefword=moor&ps=n.&homonym_no=1>
*n.* and (with suffixation)
MARSH<http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=word&queryword=mere&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&search_id=sldl-qqXTW0-19094&result_place=1&xrefword=marsh&ps=n.&homonym_no=1>
*n.* and prob. MARCH<http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=word&queryword=mere&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&search_id=sldl-qqXTW0-19094&result_place=1&xrefword=march&ps=n.&homonym_no=1>
*n*; the original sense of the Germanic base was prob. 'body of standing
water, wetland'

  Old Frisian *mār* ditch (West Frisian *mear* drainage pool), Middle Dutch
*mêre*, *maer* pool, pond, drainage channel (Dutch regional *maar*, freq. as
an element in place names), Middle Low German (East Friesland) *mār*,
*māre*drainage channel, German regional (Cologne)
*Maar*MAAR<http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=word&queryword=mere&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&search_id=sldl-qqXTW0-19094&result_place=1&xrefword=maar&ps=n.>
*n.*), may perh. represent a parallel formation from the same base, or prob.
more likely, a borrowing from Gallo-Romance: cf. Old French (chiefly
northern) *mare* pond, pool, swamp (12th cent.), post-classical Latin
*mara*pond, pool (from 11th cent., chiefly in British and northern
French
sources); *mar-* forms in Middle English have perh. been influenced by these
words (although they might also derive from sporadic forms with unlengthened
root vowel and subsequent lowering of *e* to *a* before *r*: cf. E. J.
Dobson *Eng.** Pronunc. 1500-1700* (ed. 2, 1968) II. §§67-8). The
Gallo-Romance etymon of these words itself prob. represents a Germanic
loanword ult. from the same base as *mere*.
  In quot. *a*1530 at sense 1 *mere* is perh. < Middle French *mer* sea (<
classical Latin *mare*), although the collocation *mer Mediterrane* is not
attested in French before 1512.
  Recorded in *Eng.** Dial. Dict.* s.v. in sense 2 from a number of
northern, north midland, and eastern English counties as well as Scotland;
and in sense 4 from Yorkshire and Suffolk (cf. also quot. 1995 from
Lincolnshire).]  crater-lake (see
***

Yes, there appears to be an ancient connection, but probably a pre-Germanic
one, and Northern Germanic still has a distinction between mar and *mýrr*,
corresponding to English mere and mire respectively.

Cheerio! Say hi to Ruth!
Reinhard/Ron
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